Mockups
 

I like it. I love mockups when they are helpful to plan how things will fit, probably a result of managing the team that built two full scale mockups of the F119 engine for the USAF ATF F-22 Raptor in the 80s. I built at least three versions when adding a PerfectPass speed control to my ETEC 150 HO. It was essential to mockup the servo-control to make sure it would fit under the engine cover before spending money for the real control.

Don’t overlook where your gunnel mounted engine throttle control will be relative to the steering wheel, and a beverage holder (probably to the right of the steering wheel). Also consider future add-ons like trim tab controls and additional gauges. Best wishes.

Mockups
 

Hey Locke n Load
Sorry another thought as I looked at your photo again. Occasionally I drive my Seafari with the (right-hinged) door open. Make sure you won't be busting your knuckles on the door when steering.

Like what you’re doing, condition 1.

No critiques on design. I think your biggest variable will be the height of seat relative to view in relation to controls. That’s a pain. I found raising my seat improved my view and went back to near factory style. Don’t be afraid to make a living thing. I’m on version 12? And have to scrap another teak and switch panel. keep up the good work. Especially with fall coming on for you mainlanders.

Had to be upper 80’s here today. I got cooked in boat today.

Thanks for the tips and added details to consider. I do need to get the actual dimensions of the controls, but am figuring there should be plenty of room along that right side rail/gunnel. The wheel is shifted to the left. Also, the picture angle is weird, but the wheel will not overhang the edge into the cuddy access. I am planning on hinges on the left so the passenger can deal with the open door rather than the driver. :)

I got adjustable height seat pedestals figuring there is no way I will know what height I will want the seats at until actual seat time. The bottom of the wheel will be 25" from the deck. The seats also have 5" of slide travel so standing at the helm can be achieved. Ergonomics are important. I must have tried a dozen different layouts on the mockup before I settled on the one pictured. Line of sight to the gauges and MFD being most important. All the switches and panels; bilge, tabs and 8 contura will be below the wheel. That actually made me think of something else.

The helm will be framed with Coosa, but spans will be 1/4-3/8" of solid glass like sheetrock over studs. I am thinking of making something like C-channel or I-beams out of glass and securing them to the back of the helm glass panels. Components like busses, ACR and battery charger can then be bolted to the protruding structures since there will be access to the back side. I'm not sure I am explaining that clearly, but I picture securely bolted components rather than trying to glue them in place.

Here’s an idea from my old telecom days (how I got through college).

Put up a piece of backer board (coosa?).Screw that into your structure and now you a place you can screw into anything anywhere without multiple holes, or issues relaying stuff out.

Just food for thought. I’ve seen a few other boat guys apply this to boat wiring recently. Probably so they can do much of the wiring out of the boat then install the board and be done.

I have seen how a board of some type can be adhered to the hull and then screwed into rather than going directly into the hull. Anything from a transducer to a bilge pump to a battery charger. My only concern is the screw. How secure is a screw into G10, Starboard or Coosa? Wood I get has good holding power, but I am using zero percent wood in this rebuild. I'd rather bolt things in place and not have to worry about it.

The issue then becomes getting to the back of the bolt for the washer and nut. Going through a stringer where there is access on both sides works. But the box for the helm is different. I do not want to see bolt heads sticking out everywhere. My solution is making up a bunch of I shaped glass beams. Maybe two inches tall and two inches wide. Tall enough to get behind with a wrench to tighten the nut and wide enough for the bolt to go through and have material supporting it. Glass the bottom of the I-beam to the panel and then bolt whatever item to the top. Two beams per item. Maybe even help with cooling electronics since there will be airflow underneath?

I will be testing my theory soon enough and will report back. Could be a total failure or a waste of time, but only one way to find out.

If you thru bolt thru the stringer you could try what I did using old fishing poles to cut spacers large enough for your bolt then epoxy them thru holes drilled large enough to slide into the stringer . This stops the compression of the stringer and keeps water from getting to the foam inside the stringer

G10 plate epoxied onto a vertical surface has enough holding power to hold just about anything youd put in a 20fter. Can drill and tap it just like aluminum but no corrosion issues. Just have to plan out the locations.

Not sure im following the helm plan, why not use glassed coosa pieces like the stern?

Ill try to get some pics of g10 mounting stuff…

I like the idea. My plan is to make the tubes myself by wrapping glass around a slightly tapered mandrel, but I will have to check the basement for any old rods I will never use again. Thabks

If you endorse G10 then I won't question it and order some up. How thick? I think the heaviest item will be the dual bank battery charger.

My thinking with the Coosa is it is already 3/4" thick. Adding a couple of layers of glass and it is getting pretty thick and taking up valuable real estate. Also, I am running low. :( I could try patching together a bunch of the scraps. I was just thinking I have enough material to make the frame and I could make panels of straight glass to complete the box. I do have some of the Carbon Core honeycomb leftover I could use and it is economical enough to order and ship more if needed. Hmmmm...

You can layup your own glass panels if you didnt wana order g10. 3/8” thick is plenty. You really dont need a full size piece, just some squares where the mounting fasteners are. That will raise it up a bit for cooling too.

Use the coosa for the helm area and whatever ya got for the rest. Honeycomb isnt ideal for that cuz you cant just round over the corners. Framing a box is just too much work and over-engineering, and shaping the corners will be a royal pain. Build the box with cored panels, fillet and tape the inside.

Most of the time ill try and screw my ziptie mounts into or close to the filleted corner. Keeps all the rigging tucked into the corner and theres plenty of meat to hold the screw…

I made the passenger side bulkhead separating the deck area from the cuddy area with 1/2" CC honeycomb and a couple layers of 17 oz. biaxial on each side. It is quite stiff and not having to worry about corners made it relatively easy. Then I made the seat/hatch covers the same way. Lots of edges meant filling the honeycomb with thickened epoxy and then wrapping glass tape around, several layers thick. More work than I expected, but plenty strong again and fit well.

I am planning on making the entire face of the helm where the steering pump, electronics and everything else will be attached to ensure it is plenty strong. Then I was figuring the frame for the rest of the helm box with Coosa. Maybe I can see if I can locate some more Coosa locally. I found the three panels I have used off Craigslist for $660. That's about one panel now with shipping.

I like the idea of making my own G10 style glass board. That should be easy enough. I have found the 17 oz. material ends up being 1/32nd of an inch thick each layer. 12 layers won't take long to do.

Thanks for all the tips and suggestions. Much appreciated.

If you still have any scraps of demoed boat(the original side of the deck liner work great) you can stack them and use thickened epoxy to stick them together to make cheap G10.

Boats looking good. Your stringers came out nice...almost a shame to cover them up lol

Strick

Good news on the Coosa front. I checked their website and there is a new distributor down the Cape about an hour from me. Heading down Saturday for a sheet.

I spent some time cleaning up the dash area under the windshield. Man, the oxidation of that gel coat was thick. Practically down to the glass in some spots. It is going to look good levelled, faired and painted along with the rest of the helm area.

I am thinking the aluminum frame of the windshield should get cleaned up as well. Polish it or powdercoat it a color, light gray?

Thanks. I used Bigshrimpin's idea of raising them using vinyl gutter downspouts. :) I have been walking on them for months now and they are plenty sturdy.

Great news on coosa. I love that stuff. I’d suggest get 2 sheets. It never goes as far as you hope it will.

I tried to polish mine. They were too deeply scratched to come out nice. There was no one on my island who does powder coating (my second choice).

So I put some aluminum primer and aluminum paint on them. My family thinks they look great and it was cheap!

Image to go with my last description.

Some photos of my latest work now that winter is here and I won't be out there for a few months. The helm is a clean sheet ready for fairing, painting and components to be installed. Same for the splashwell as the purchased hatch cover is just sitting there. Seating is nice and tall making space for a 5 gallon bucket inside.

I am so happy winter is over and I have been able to get back to work. The last week and a half has been spent removing the bottom paint. I used the lye-corn starch method and was able to get 90% of the paint off this way. The rest was good ole sanding.

I was able to get a smooth finish using 60 grit and will move up before priming and painting. I got out most of the scratches and chips, even getting through all the gelcoat down to glass in some spots, but still have plenty of hairline spider cracks. Should I worry about these or will covering them with the epoxy primer and paint be sufficient?

Looking good!

I didn’t have a lot of hairline cracks like I see in your pics. What kind of top coating are you putting down? Once you send me that I’ll call my local paint supplier and get his feedback for you.

It’s going to be a trailer boat? What’s the longest it will be in water? I’m guessing a barrier coating and then primer and paint should be fine but I’ll check for you.

Cool, thanks.

The bigger hairline cracks and chips have been sanded down until either I could no longer see them in the gelcoat or I got to fiberglass. What is left are the very fine cracks that didn't even absorb any of the bottom paint.

I am thinking for below the waterline to us Interlux VC Performance Epoxy with their epoxy primer. Then for above the water line and everywhere else Alexseal Premium Topcoat 501 with their primer.

Yes, this will be a 100% trailered boat. The longest it would be in the water is maybe an overnight so say 24 hours.

I have been creating a lot of dust lately. Every little chip and crack on the hull sides and top has been sanded out, filled in with thickened epoxy and sanded smooth. I am going to do the same for the bottom. Once the temps come up a little more the deck will be going in and the major glass work will be done.


This has me focused on preparing for painting. I have identified all the components I need for each area. Now I just need to figure out how much.

My measurements and guesstimates show 120 square feet for the exterior hull sides to get the blue paint. Figure 25 feet of length when including the transom area and average 2.5 feet of height = 60 +/- each side.

Everywhere else will be white and I figure it is twice as much square footage. Does this seem right, 120 for the sides between the rubrail and waterline? 200-240 square feet for the rest? The rest includes the transom seating area and splashwell, interior hull sides, deck, cap, partition and helm separating cuddy, cuddy structure and inside the cuddy.

The Alexseal paint states 244 square feet of coverage per mixed gallon of base color, converter and reducer. I will be doing three coats making the sides 1.5 gallons (120 s/f x 3 divided by 244 s/f/gal) and the rest 3 gallons. 4.5 gallons of paint seem reasonable to paint a whole Seafari above the waterline and interior?

The bottom is getting 2 gallons of primer and 2 gallons of Interlux VC performance Epoxy. There was a calculator for this. :)

I used just under 1 gal of alex paint(+the additives) for the topside of my build. I didn't use alexseal for the nonskid which I hear eats up a lot of paint. I sprayed everything and had no experience spraying and wouldn't do that again... I'd recommend rolling with their additive.

Every time I feel like I am making headway I hit a roadblock. Latest is the transom core and outside skin. I knew I had an air pocket on the port side that needed attention and finally got around to inspecting it. Tapping with a knuckle gave inconclusive results so I went to a hammer. Same deal as differentiating the tones was difficult. Then I tried the shears for cutting the fiberglass cloth. Just right! Big problem.

The air pocket was contained to a baseball size as I had thought. Tapping kept finding more areas eventually leading to me removing nearly the entire bottom half of the skin. Ugh. Ok, I have created a whole bunch more work for myself, but at least now I will not have to worry about and know it will be solid. Problem.

I ground down a taper all around, sanded it smoothish with 60 grit, filled low spots with thickened epoxy, wiped it down with DNA then grease/oil remover per my usual practice and tried to lay some cloth. No bueno. The cloth just kept falling off. My tried and true method is spread some resin on the hull, stick the cloth in place then fully saturate the cloth and get any air bubbles out. I could not get the cloth to stick in place. I tried full saturating the cloth first then applying and that did not work either. I even tried just a small 6"x6" piece and it would fall right off too.

I get my resin from US Composites and have been very happy with it. Recently they changed their composition of the medium hardener due to not being able to get an ingredient. The new formula works still, but it is thinner and clearer and does not blush. Ok, great except when you are trying to work on a slightly inverted vertical surface and upside down. I mixed the resin correctly and it was 78 degrees and not humid. I checked the resin that was left on the hull three hours later and it was a little tacky at that point.

Now I need suggestions on how to deal with this problem. I could mix up a few ounces and coat the hull, wait three hours and try applying the cloth then and see if it will stick. Or I could try thickening the resin a little with cabosil for spreading on the hull and see if that gets the cloth to stick. I worry about full adhesion and air bubbles with this method though. I could get a different hardener. I could try peel ply.

I am open to all suggestions.

Thanks

When a hammer doesnt work, try dragging a quarter or fender washer over the surface!

Was the void in the skin or between the skin and core? Doesnt matter much anymore just curious.

Just leave a sacrificial 6" of glass on the top and masking tape it to the hull. Flip it up, and spread a lil thickened stuff down, let it tack a little, then wet it out with plain resin and flip glass back down.

Dont wipe with anything, just blow all the dust out with a fine tip compressed air blower held right at the surface at an angle. Whatever microscopic stuff that remains will emulsify into the goo...

Even in 78degrees id be blending slow and tropical for a layup that size.

Yeah what dirt said. I catalyze real low here too. I try to wait for days where it should get hot in afternoon to help. I use mainly poly though. .75-1.25% depending on temps.

As to vertical surfaces. I paint some in with chip brush, wet out my stuff and get to it with a spreader, then roller. Walmart started selling bondo jelly resin. I’ve never used it but that would be a ton easier… and yes voids are lousy. I had some. Drilled holes and injected filler with a caulk gun. They sell tubes at west marine you can load and squeeze in there

The void was between the core and outer skin. Two layers of 3/4" Coosa epoxied together and then bolted in place. I laid down what I thought was a thick enough layer of thickened epoxy on the skin before butting the Coosa in to place. I even had squeeze out around the edges and a couple of holes so I thought I was mostly good. Wrong. I am glad I inspected and got all the failure out. Would have been nice if it worked the first time. I think I have a picture from the transom core install.

I will try laying down extra glass and taping the unsaturated edges in place. Fingers crossed.

I have had no problems with the medium hardener. As cool as down to 50 with a heat lamp overnight and as warm as 80's. I just mix a smaller amount so I can spread it all before it starts to kick when warm out. No issues with being too sticky or not sticky enough until today. Oh well, tomorrow's another day. I still need to finish filling in all the spider cracks are ground out in the hull bottom and then sand smooth. Mostly done with that unanticipated project. One grind out lead to dozens of feet of grinding.

FAIR WARNING, I am not a highly experienced glasser.

FYI: I used US Composites slow epoxy on my 25 seafari hull repair. Florida, spring. Had no trouble getting the glass to stick to vertical surfaces, but lots of tiny air bubbles. The resin was so thin for so long that it dripped out of the vertical glass before it could set. Added some cabosil to thicken the resin, took care of the problem.

You got me nervous so I went out and checked. All is good.

The tape method worked great. Thanks to all for the recommendations. I stuck little squares every 6 inches or so all around to hold the cloth in place. Then I wetted out the cloth as I figured saturation and getting to the substrate would be easy. It was. The glass stuck so well I was able to pull most of the tape off and finished wetting out the spots. I just checked on it and there are a few pull aways from compound angles around the strakes, but nothing a little grinding and filling before putting the next layers on can't take care of. No run out from the vertical or upside down positions. The epoxy is already hard after just 4 hours or so. Fastest I have seen it set.

Tomorrow will be some clean up then more laying glass. I am happy again.

Yes the steps that make em ride so good also make em a pain in the ass to glass!

On verticals i tend to try and work the resin up during layup to keep resin in the top. Ill put some of the almost gelled stuff from the bottom of the pot on the top too at the end of the layup to try and get the layup gelled up, up there.

Hard to put that into simpler words hahah

You can't really tell from the picture, but there are 4 layers of glass wrapping around the sides and bottom and it is very flat. Should be minimal fairing next then time to paint. Well, that area at least. I still have more glassing for the deck to do. I want to be completely done with glassing, grinding, sanding and fairing before I paint anywhere. At this rate I should be in the water by Spring. Ugh.