Re: cockpit scuppers 20 SF20
 

what if you were to raise the floor 2"-2.5" instead of 1" and then have the thru-transom scuppers ABOVE waterline? There are several others on the site that have gone that route [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

cockpit scuppers 20 SF20
 

I am having a 1974 SF20 completely restored including new deck and transom. Prior to the restoration, I was having a problem with water entering the cockpit via the thru hull scuppers when anyone placed his weight aft of the helm. The height of the cockpit deck (sole) is barely above the waterline. I found it necessary to insert plugs into the scuppers when the boat was idle and would remove them when on plane to let the water out. With the restoration I have directed the mechanics to raise the deck 1 inch in an effort to help eliminate the water problem.

I have a question regarding the method I should use in replacing the scuppers. The existing and original design exits the scuppers directly down thru the bottom of the hull. I notice that new models exist through the transom and have a backkflow preventer "flap" on the exist fittings. I also notice that the location of the exiting scuppers is below the water line.

I am leaning toward changing the original design which goes straight down and thru the hull to one that exits through the transom. A question is whether water will exit through this scupper with the backflow flap substantially below the water line. Will the pressure from the water outside exceed the pressure from water trying to exit from inside and thus prevent drainage when the boat is idle?

I will very much appreciate anyone's ideas on this subject for my concern is that after completing this rather massive reconstruction, water still enters the boat through the scuppers.

Thank you

Re: cockpit scuppers 20 SF20
 

If you run the scuppers out the transom they should be above the water line and I would use the Sea Scuppers by Rabud to prevent water backing in the cockpit. [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

Re: cockpit scuppers 20 SF20
 

Thank you Mark. I am concerned about raising the deck too much because of the loss of interior freeboard. Maybe 2" will not be that noticable. It all seems to depend on the ability of the scuppers to drain the cockpit with the exiting fitting being below the water line. I am hoping that the RABUD scuppers with the ball will be the answer. Thanks

Re: cockpit scuppers 20 SF20
 

I never knew why some of the OLD Timers calles them SinkCrafts till I saw what You have,Drains thru the Hull ? I had the same problem on My 20' . Sitting, water poured in, always used plugs also.I went with ball scuppers & flaps over brass tubes for the splash well.Well I've only used My Baby twice ince I've finished Her.The ball scuppers still let water in , not as much as before.I hav'nt really put Her thru many test Yet.(Just happy to run to the Keys for a Blackened Fish sandwich!) Backing down,anchored,Fishing etc. just sitting and walking back to the stern water still flows in. Maybe because I have them mounted to close to the trim tabs ? I still prefer these to the SS ones that were on before.They flooded the deck anywhere !
http://www.frenzie.com/SeaCraft_Stearn_Fin.jpg Scream'n Reels'

Re: cockpit scuppers 20 SF20
 

I'm still a bit baffled by all the comprehensive redo's that I see being done on this site that fail to raise the floor. That lake in the back end of the boat was something that I was never able to get used to. If anyone is going to the trouble and expense to rip the boat apart and put in a new transom, by all means, raise the flloor several inches and finally have a self bailing boat.

Re: cockpit scuppers 20 SF20
 

OK GUYS IT TIME FOR A DIFFERENT COURSE OF ACTION
This scupper thing has finally got my attention. I have read all the threads on wet feet long enough, I have thought about this issue without trying to invent something to correct this problem long enough. As of yesterday I stopped thinking along traditional boat repair lines and started thinking about a quick, easy, and cheep way or solving this design flaw which drives most of us a bit crazy or at least distracts us from our boating experience. I will be doing some Bata testing on a easy fix it for these scuppers that spit water up in the air like a Propos this weekend weather permitting and then spill the beans on my idea. If this craze experimentation works we will finally be able to put this puppy to bed.
FellowShip [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

Re: cockpit scuppers 20 SF20
 

http://www.foodmachinery.com/franke1.jpg

Fellowship - It's alive!

[ November 06, 2003, 04:19 PM: Message edited by: Otto Cuyler ]

Re: cockpit scuppers 20 SF20
 

Yeah. This is something that needs to be figured out once and for all. I am in the position now to get rid of the floor scupper and go through the hull.

I just have not had anyone, except for Rich, member # 44, have a very strong view on going through the transom. I tried to copy his drawing of what he did, but could not get it to paste over to this thread. So, if you're interested - go to 'Search'... Then, type in 'Scupper' as subject, choose the 'Repair/Mods.' section. Go down 3/4 of the way till you see " Scupper relocate " started by me, ABL1111. Scroll down till you see an actual drawing ( not the boat diagram ). That seems to be a good way to go...

I just don't have the balls to do it, unless I knew it would really work. Speaking of balls, I don't like the ball scupper idea - I forsee problems w/ stuff getting caught in there not to mention marine growth undermining the seal ( I keep my boat in the water 8 months of the year )

So, if someone can come up with a better mouse-trap - pls share it.

As for the scuppers having to be above the water line - I'm not sure of that. My Grady had them half in the water and half out and water almost never came back in. And that boat had the inexpensive, round plastic w/ rubber flap scuppers.

Something to think about, it just dawned on me. Maybe the floatation in the stern is not adequate. Thinking about it, my Grady White did not really dip into the water too much when weight was put in the stern. Maybe the Seacraft's design creates a much more sensitive affect when weight is put aft ?

Anyway - take a look at that thread I mentioned. It would raise the scupper at least 2" from it's 'stock' position...

ABL

Re: cockpit scuppers 20 SF20
 

Replacing the deck and raising it 2 inches is a lot of work. My deck is solid, and I had no reason to change things. I think every boat is going to float a little different. If after getting it the water and finding this a real problem, I could raise the deck. But it would be the last thing to do if I could help it. I'll be moving my battery from the front console to the back of the boat. I'm bow heavy not stern.

Wet foam stringers could account for a lot of problems. Did this boat (all) have problems right from the factory??? I don't know. Bill Potter would. I agree that the deck needs to be raised to allow the water to flow.

None of the boat test articles on the site talk about standing in a pool of water.

Re: cockpit scuppers 20 SF20
 

It has nothing to do with wet foam. I have a friend with a 2002 "Lefty Kreh Edition" 20' Master Anger that has had the same problem that my 1971 did. He has both of us stand on the bow at the end of the day so the soapy water from washing the boat will drain out. The floor is simply too close to sea level.

( I have no idea what the situation is like in the non-center console models. All that structure forward could make a great deal of difference)

If you don't want to raise the floor, invest in a good pair of neoprene booties. Moving the scuppers around here and there does not fundamentally change the relation of the floor to the ambient water level. Numerous posts on here speak of people putting the plugs in their scuppers when they board the boat and removing them when they tie back up to the dock. Is that really an acceptable proceedure on a rough sloppy day?

I have no burden for people to raise their floors. I'm merely suggesting a way to once and for all solve the fact that these are not inherenly a very self bailing boat. If someone prefers to leave the floor at the original height, more power to them. I've had two of these boats now, got sick of that situation, and chose to change it even though the floor in my boat was perfectly solid.

[ November 06, 2003, 08:49 PM: Message edited by: Mark ]

Re: cockpit scuppers 20 SF20
 

Mark... I've thought about the scupper problem over and over again. I'm adding a large flotation bracket to my boat so hopfully that will take care of the problem. I do plan on filling in the factory scuppers and putting in my own thru the transom scuppers. Raising the whole deck would be a major PIA if I dont need to. It is rock solid I really dont want to open that can of worms if I dont have to. I plan on doing a test float after the new bracket and engines are bolted back on and then scupper problem will be addressed.

Strick

Re: cockpit scuppers 20 SF20
 

Strick,

I have no experience on this issue with anything other than the 18' (1977 model) and 20' (1971 edition) center consoles - both of which would flood if people stood in their stern with the plugs removed.

I would suspect that a floatation bracket would solve this problem and if I had a 23', that would be on my shopping list. However, I currently have a 20'CC, and while it is not complete yet, the floor is 2.25" higher than it used to be which should solve the self-bailing (or rather the lack thereof) and the deck now drains out through two scuppers in the transom instead of those interesting holes throught the bottom of the hull.

I agree that raising the stringers/floor is not a minor undertaking but it was the single most important thing I wanted changed on the boat. I was sick of yelling to a friend in the boat while underway to "quick, pull the plugs" when a wave would come in. That issue is hopefully behind me now. In addition, I didn't much like the fact that two people (or even one) couldn't fish in the stern without the plugs being in the scuppers. That simply wasn't acceptable from my perspective. I am having the entire boat redone and am trying to address every concievable item that I felt needed changing: the floor was the top of the list, but the list goes well beyond that [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[ November 07, 2003, 10:05 AM: Message edited by: Mark ]

Re: cockpit scuppers 20 SF20
 

You know , I got My Mind work'n And THAT IS A DANGEROUS thing to Happen ! Just ask any FISH !!
Could there be a mid line back flo valve of some sorts put into the drain tube ? Its 1.5" so theres got to a anti-back flow valve avalable . Kinda like for aquariums and such. Hmm time to Surf the ol NET !That would be "2" scuppers in a way .simple instalation (on one side)
Just a thought to Ponder !
Scream'n reels'
"TUG" [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Re: cockpit scuppers 20 SF20
 

Strick,

I have a 73" 20ft with a 200 Merc mounted on the flotation b-bracket. Two adults standing in the transom, water still comes in. It comes with the territory I had a 21 Paramount and same thing not as bad. Solution plug them up and let the water fall into the floor livewell. Oh and I raised the floor two inches too. There has to be something designed to avoid having yellowstone park in the boat( water shooting up 30 feet in the air).

Re: cockpit scuppers 20 SF20
 

OK GUYS
I went to Home Depo and bought the necessary supplies to solve the scupper problems today. This new and totally different approach will cost you NOT $19.95 FOR ONE NOT EVEN $19.95 FOR BOTH SCUPPERS. MATTER OF FACT IT WILL NOT EVEN COST YOU 9.95 FOR BOTH NOT EVEN 4.99 FOR BOTH THIS NEW AND REVOLUTION PRODUCT WILL ONLY COST YOU LESS THAT $1.00 AND THAT IT TO FIX BOTH SCUPPERS. YES FRIENDS LESS THAN JUST ONE DOLLAR TO DO BOTH SCUPPERS. So before you start tearing out and drilling out big holes in your transom “PLEASE WAIT” for my Bata testing this weekend (weather permitting) to test and then tell you of this great product soon to be available for YOU. At this time I will not disclose the method nor materials in this exciting and dynamic fix to wet feet. I personally was so excited of this new product that, I must say I barely could sleep last night I toss and turn all nigh thinking of all the great things that can be accomplished by using this new and wonderful product.
I will say that I do have a name for it and at this time I will disclose just this bit of information to you. As I have pondered this problem for many countless hours one name kept coming up so I have decided to go with it.
The name of the new scupper fix it that has baffled all SeaCaft owners for the last 30 plus Years will be calllllllllllllllled “”” T H E V O R T E X ””” Yes friends “THE VORTEX” will be coming to you. Just think never ever, yes never ever having wet feet again.
Founder of ‘THE VORTEX”
FellowShip [img]images/icons/shocked.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/shocked.gif[/img]

Re: cockpit scuppers 20 SF20
 

Sounds like something to do w/ a toilet bowl ??? The vortex... I do get a 'flushing vibe' form this word...

Fellowship, if you truly solve this, as simply as you say, I will call up your local beer distributor and gladly pay for a case of whatever ale you're drinking !!! I promise !

So, there's a little more incentive for you !!!

Re: cockpit scuppers 20 SF20
 

Fellow-Ship,

From the sounds of your post, you've been watching a few late night TV commercials lately.

Remember, when the solution has been finalized and it is ready for market, pitch the following: "not available in stores, have your credit card ready, and while supplies last" [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

Re: cockpit scuppers 20 SF20
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What he's been drinking? I think he's been smoking something! Ha Fellow-ship, is it true that once you do this repair and bring it down to Australia it swirls counter-clockwise??

Re: cockpit scuppers 20 SF20
 

John,

It's not beer or smoke - it's resin - from all the fiberglassing I have been doing latel to bring my 23' back to life. $90 for 5 gallons - REAL CHEAP ! Then again, maybe it is as you say ... [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

- And that scupper problem, even though I have never experienced it ( cause I've never used the boat yet ), I know I'm going to hate it. I don't want to deal w/ plugging and unplugging each scupper everytime water is in boat.

Re: cockpit scuppers 20 SF20
 

Look out Ron Popeil!!!

Re: cockpit scuppers 20 SF20
 

My 23 is a trailer boat. Although it cost 3 or 4 dollars, and is an arguable solution, Salty Dog and I chose to fill in the transom scuppers entirely our my 23 and drain the cockpit directly to the bilge.

Stainless steel screens blocks debris. An all new triple Rule bilge pump setup backed up by a washdown pump with diversion valve for the bilge will keep her dry. A dedicated group 27 battery will manage that load.

It might be a long way to go to do this, but we've reduced the number of through hull fittings, a major sourse of potential water incursion.

The addition of the mooring cover will keep rain water to a minimum.

We'll see how it works out.

Re: cockpit scuppers 20 SF20
 

Regarding the floatation bracket (Seamark). The single engine bracket gives you 420 lbs of buoyancy to the bottom of the swim platform, and the twin engine unit 890 lbs.

Question: when installed, what is the relation of the bottom of the swim platform to the height of the deck? If not installed at or below the height of the deck, won't this negate the "useful" buoyancy?

Re: cockpit scuppers 20 SF20
 

Well folks, as a brand new member, I had no idea what I started when I posted my question about my 1974 SF20 scuppers. At this point I have made my decision and have instructed the mechanics to raise the deck 1" (it was in need of replacement), raise the level scupper wells and install brass scupper ball drain fittings at the deck level and then exit the scupper drains thru the transom as high up as practical. I am also having the deck slightly pitched from the center to both port and starboard sides to insure water will flow from the deck to the scupper drains in as much as the original gutter behind the bait well will no longer be there.

In addition to raising the deck and modifying the scuppers, I am raising the transom 5 inches and going to a 25" shaft on my new Merc 200 EFI. You see, this boat has "gone down" four times over the years. In fact, I'm having her "AwlGriped" "Fighting Lady Yellow" in honor of the old song, "We all live in a Yellow SUBMARINE".

Of interest, I am the original owner of this SeaCraft (1974)and I do not remember this backflow water problem existing in the boat's earlier years. Back then my power was a 135 hp. Today its a 200 hp - a substantial weight difference. My wife says that's not the real problem. She reminds me that back then, I was the 180 pound skipper that today is the 220 pound model. Maybe a diet is part of the solution.

Thanks for all the thoughts and suggestions. I'll post the results after she's finished.

R. Fowler

Re: cockpit scuppers 20 SF20
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You're the original owner of a boat that has sunk 4 times? [img]images/icons/shocked.gif[/img] You are perhaps the most dedicated of all classic SeaCraft owners!

Re: cockpit scuppers 20 SF20
 

Greetings! Talk about kismet! I posted a question about my squishy Topsiders on the FL Sportsman Boating Forum and boom! zowie!, a reply directed me to this site. What a pleasant surprise. (I feel a little like Dorothy waking up back in Kansas.)

Little did I know I was landing in a hot (wet) topic. I look forward to hearing more about the "Vortex Solution".

Great to find you all...

Cheers,
RB

Re: cockpit scuppers 20 SF20
 

Rick,
Glad you found your way over here. As I said on the FS site, when these boats where designed in the late 60's/early 70's, there was alot less motor on the transom, and they sat alot higher in the back. Also, a wet transom can add alot of weight to the rear end of the boat.
The final solution for alot of people is a floatation bracket. Rabuds certainly are a stopgap solution though.

Re: cockpit scuppers 20 SF20
 

Robert,4 times, damn, now I know why tommy tuna calls his a "sinkcraft". Can you tell us how it sank??All at the pier(I hope) and the one I think about most, did she sink "all the way".I have to agree with Scott, You are definietly the "most dedicated"

Re: cockpit scuppers 20 SF20
 

I have been asked to explain how my SF 20 sank 4 times over the years.

Sinking 1. While lifting on davits, the relatively new rear cable broke and the stern went completely in submerging the engine. Remedy - I changed to stainless steel cables.

Sinking 2. Sabotage. I am a developer and I kept the boat at a dock one evening at one of my condominium projects. Someone pulled the plug and the boat completely submerged. The owners' complaint was that I did not provide enough dockspace for the condominium. Remedy - I didn't add any dockspace; however, I never left the boat there again.

Sinnking 3 - While fishing in the Gulf and backing down on a fish in a moderate sea, three of the "crew" decided to quickly run to the stern to get a better look at the fish at which time the transom went below the water and a sea entered and instead of the scuppers acting as a "self bailing" feature, they became a "self sinking" feature. There just was no tolerance for this weight in the stern of the SeaCraft. It all happened amazingly quick. Even though all body weight was transfered forward immediately, there was so much water taken on that the bilge pump was of no value, salt water immediately got into the carbs of the engine, and we sank. Floatation made it sink SLOWLY though. Remedy - I am now a flats fisherman and own an HPX Maverick Mirage (draws 5 inched - can't sink in 5 inches of water).

Sinking 4 - Recently I was on Safari in Botswanna. I invited my guide to the States. Amongst many adventures, I wanted to take him out to our barrier islands (Captiva and Cayo Costa). We used the SeaCraft. The day was windy and the seas at about 2 to 3 feet. Plan was to anchor just off the beach and swim in. The guide, who I looked up to as my "Crocodile Dundee" type friend, could do about anything inthe wild but, as I learned, could not swim (understandabel living in Botswanna). Therefore, after anchoring off the bow, I reversed the engine to get the stern closer to the beach and to enable me to take a 100 foot line and tie the stern off to a tree way up on the beach. This allowed for easier access from the boat to beach. About an hour later, we took a walk up the desolated beach and during that time the wind shifted creating a different wave angle to the boat. Upon our return trip up the beach, I saw the flotsom (cushions, towels, etc) floating in the sea and they looked familiar. Sure enough, by the time we got to the boat, she was completely down and in the surf. Once again, water came over the transom. Boat US and Sea Tow were called. They declared the vessel "salvage", got a pump aboard, and towed it to sea. $ 3,200 later, they had her to a boat ramp where we hauled her and took her back to the ranch. Remedy - I let her sit on that trailer for two years as punishment (actually, I deserved some of the punishment for my stupidity for I know how dangerous the transom design design is).

After all that I went out to by a new SeaCraft. Couldn't do it. Guess my old SF20 has been too much a part of me for 30 years - been too many places together, she helped me raise my kid, just too many good times in the past. So now she is being completely reconstructed as I have mentioned before. However, she now will have a 5 INCH HIGHER TRANSOM WITH A SPLASH WELL AND A NEW SCUPPER DESIGN.

By the way, her name is "SPIRIT OF AMERICA" and like her name, she is strong and enduring. She's worth taking care of.

Re: cockpit scuppers 20 SF20
 

Robert,

It takes a real guy to reveal all that. I repect the fact that, one, you're out there "doing it". And, two, you're headed back out for more.

It goes to show you, SeaCraft, despite some design "issues" just keep hanging in there and coming back for more.

Good for you, man...