Honda or Ficht?
 

OK...

I've decided to defer the "pocket rocket" aquisition in favor of finishing the 23CC and putting the bucks into a new motor instead of re-installing a 1989 Yamaha 200 with 850 salt water hours (although she runs great).

It's down to Evinrude Ficht DI 225 or Honda 225 installed with a gauge package. Pricing is only slightly higher on the Honda. I love Honda products, but between a higher price, not much better MPG and higher maintainence costs, I believe the Ficht is a better choice. In our area, Yamaha dealers are hard to find, or I'd be looking there too.

The 225 Ficht will hypotheticaly push the 23CC to around 48 MPH at 3 MPG give or take. I'm calculating this with 3000 pound hull, 540 pound motor, 60 gal. fuel/half tank (500 pounds), 2 persons (500 pounds), 200 pounds of gear and 100 pounds batteries & oil. That's 4840, say 5000 pounds.

I'll place an order this week. Any comments?

Re: Honda or Ficht?
 

I would try to get someone that owns the 4 stroke's opinion of that motor on a 23. I thought I read somewhere that the Honda 225 was a dog on a 23 SC but there was also a question of how well the motor was rigged. Beyond that I still think I would personally consider a 4 stroke if I had the choice. With the Ficht likely after that going 2 stroke.

I know a local top charter guy / comm fisherman that runs a Yami 225 4 Stroke on his 21 Contender. We haven't talked much about the engine but he's had nothing but praise for it and he puts this boat in some tough waters and a lot of hours (I haven't even been on the boat yet [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif[/img] although Trayder has ).

As for the 225 Ficht - Hooper seems to be real happy with his. Don't know if 48MPH is a little optimistic [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

How much do you want for the old 200 ? Give you some cash & trade? Like free business website hosting for a couple years? [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Honda or Ficht?
 

A very good friend of mine as a new 23 Seacraft with the 225 Honda and he has nothing but good things to say about the boat/engine combo.

I would not buy the Ficht 225 unless it is after Bomardier sells the division and you are happy with the new owner?

Do you have a Suzuki dealer near you? The new Suzuki 200,225,and 250 should blow the doors off the current V6 four strokes and should be priced lower. I do not know its availability, I think July or August?

Re: Honda or Ficht?
 

OK - Maybe I'll be getting a Suzuki next year [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img] ...

Trayder - know any fuel / speed stats on that Honda powered Unclassic Seacraft?

Re: Honda or Ficht?
 

Otto-

I agree with Trayder.....definitely pass on the FICHT. The local Mako dealer down the street dropped Evinrude/Johnson during the whole OMC debacle and picked up HONDA and has been selling the shit out of the Honda 130s & 225's. Everybody and the mother is buying them and so far, very few problems. The mechanics are friends with my boss and have nothing but but good stuff to say about the Hondas (and the Yamaha OX-66 2-stroke motors---just to be fair) Plus, HONDA is standing behind their products....of the few motors that have had issues...HOnda replaced powerhead or lower unit and extended warranty for 10 years. Honda also asked the dealer if he had any customers with over 500 hours on their motors because they (HONDA) wanted to take them apart, inspect and reengineer them. The guy got brand new twin 130's....not a bad deal!!

Lastly, most of the coast guard boats in teh area have switched to Hondas. The rigid inflatable center consoles are running twin 130's and the new SAFE rigid inflatables with aluminum pilot house are running twin 225's.

Just some more info to help you make your decision. The only thing I would seriously look into is the added weight on the transom. Find out what your existing motor weighs and what the new Honda 225 weighs. If it is a big difference, it may throw off the self bailing characteristics of teh deck and the hull'd ride. 4 strokes are great....but your 1987 boat and my 1991 boat weren't exactly designed for that extra weight. Even if your transom is new and strong as the rock of gibraltar and can handle the extra weight.....balancing the boat is the key issue. (Several off the new boat manufacturers are moving some of the boats weight forward to compensate for the heavier horsepower on the transom)

Good luck and let us know how you make out.

Re: Honda or Ficht?
 

I just reviewed the POWERBOAT REPORTS article in their Jan. 2003 issue. The test 23 had a Honda 225. They recorded 31.2 MPH @ 4000 RPM for 3.4 MPG and 85 db.

Interestingly, a 4500 RPM cruise yeilds a SLOWER 30.35 MPH and 2.5 MPG. What's up with that?

Top speed at WOT was 38.4 at 5600 RPM w/ 91.5 db.

I find the top speed quite low and we KNOW the hole shot is going to suffer compared to a DI, which should also give a substancially higher top end.

Trayder, I spoke at length with my local dealer, who sells both Ficht and Honda. He felt extemely confident that no matter who buys Bombardier, they will continue the push with the E-tec, etc. Further, he heard that the Bombar.dier family want a majority interest. I think that says something. As I've known this dealer/owner for 30 years, I have every confidence in a 5 to 10 year outlook for my 23 with a Ficht.

The only personal leaning I could get out of him was that the Honda was very quiet and smooth at idle, which is perfect for 2-3 MPH trolling on Lake Ontario. I don't do that.

I'll have pricing for both (installed) and will post the results. As I tell the kids, "we'll see"...

[ June 04, 2003, 12:34 AM: Message edited by: Otto Cuyler ]

Re: Honda or Ficht?
 

Otto, down here Honda's don't have a great rep. I know a few people that have had nothing but problems, and their very heavy too boot. I agree with Trayder on the Suzuki idea and the savings should put you back in the ball game for the 4 boat theory. [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Honda or Ficht?
 

JohnR- That is my frioends boat in Power Boat Reprts, the guys who run the boat from Greenwich CT to Edgartown so I guess what Otto published are the #'s?

Re: Honda or Ficht?
 

Otto- Being comfortable with your dealer is the most important factor in my opinion. I may disagree with his thoughts on the new owners as there is no telling at this point but he will be the one working on it if he is local and reasonable and you like him that is 80% of the battle right there.

Re: Honda or Ficht?
 

It seems that on even numbered years I read that Evinrude/Johnson has their problems figured out. On odd numbered years the problems with financing/backing resurface again.

What Trayder said about being comfortable with your dealer is correct. However, wouldn't it be great to not only be confident in your dealer but also in the manufacturer he is representing?

I don't have a solution to this situation but personally would be a bit shy of a company with repetitive backer problems that are significant enough to make it widely into the press every other year.

Re: Honda or Ficht?
 

A guy on my canal just bought a c-hawk 23 with a 225 Honda. He loves it! You are taking a chance with the Ficht! Don't do it. As far as maintainance, I think that whole idea has been blown out of perportion. Check out this math. If you run your Ficht 500 hours and average fuel burn is 8gph that is 4000 gallons of gas. If the oil burn averages a 80 to 1 mix at $17.00 a gallon for the factory recommended stuff you would have oil costs of (4000/80)=50 gallons of oil x$17=$850.00. Of course you need to change the oll in your 4 stroke motor but my suzuki's use 4 qts at $1.50/qt and a $4.00 oil filter I can buy at the auto parts store. If I switch to synthetic like mobil one I could probably get 200-250 hours between oil change. On my first oil 100 hour oil change the motors hadn't burnt a drop and it was as clean as the day it was put in. My dealer charged me $80.00 total for my twins if I have him do it. As far as speed, don't expect any more than 42mph (38 kts) out of the opti, ficht or honda. Personally I would wait 2 months for the 250 Suzuki 4 stroker.

Re: Honda or Ficht?
 

Just dug this up off Suzuki's website. This is the first time I've seen numbers on the big four strokes. Looks like they weigh in just under 600 lbs.

source = http://www.media.suzuki.com/marine/press04/pr_1.html pick on the technical specs link.

SUZUKI V6 4-STROKE OUTBOARDS TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS

Engine Type

55-degree V6 DOHC 24 valves


Maximum Output

200 HP (DF200); 225 HP (DF225); 250 HP (DF250)


Fuel Delivery

Multi-Point Sequential Electronic Fuel Injection


Displacement

3.6 liters (220.5 cubic inches)


Bore X Stroke

3.74 inches X 3.35 inches (95mm X 85mm)


Cam Drive

Two-stage, oil-bathed chain driven valve train with automatic hydraulic tensioners


Operating Range

5000-6000 rpm (DF200)




5000-6000 rpm (DF225)




5500-6100 rpm (DF250)


Idle Speed

650 rpm


Shaft Length

XL: 25" XXL: 30"


Counter Rotation

Available on all models, XL and XXL


Weight

XL: 580 lbs. XXL: 591 lbs


Oil Capacity

7.6 qts.


Ignition System

Fully transistorized direct ignition


Alternator

12V 54A


Gear Ratio

2.29:1


Propeller

Stainless steel, 16-inch diameter

[ June 04, 2003, 10:43 AM: Message edited by: Rich ]

Re: Honda or Ficht?
 

I'd go 2 stroke.. theres a reason that Honda is trading 500hour motors for new ones. I've heard that Bom is being bought buy the family that owns it now as a way to save the name and keep it in the family, It's all paper work... But the big thing I've heard about the 4 strokes is that, those times when you hit something or bump something can cause bigger problems other then a lower unit or prop hub. they have belts for timing chains(like cars) and that the belts will break when impact happens and you bend all of the valves [img]images/icons/shocked.gif[/img]

Re: Honda or Ficht?
 

Don't wait - buy the Ficht - sell me your 200 cheap [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img] ...

You said the pricing was pretty close, right? Does your dealer friend have anything in the same size / weight range that you can demo with the motors already hung?

Weight is about 80 pounds difference - both heavy...

Re: Honda or Ficht?
 

Real nice Otto, and thats the thanks I get for hipping you to the 4 boat theory. Thats the last time I'll try to talk you into buying another boat.... [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

Ever consider putting a Seamark bracket and twins? Just a thought, hummm........

Re: Honda or Ficht?
 

Otto - don't listen to Finster, before you know it you'll be trading barbs on ClassicBayliner.com as he wields hit slipper schemes into high gear...

Seriously, if it comes to a decision point for you and I'm still looking, we can talk...

Oh yeh - MORE PICS!!! [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

Thanks,

John

Re: Honda or Ficht?
 

Otto I just bought a Yamaha 250HPDI for $12600. over the phone from Stuart Fla. Cost 250. to ship to ma.

Re: Honda or Ficht?
 

Steve - what's the impact on warranty? I assume you already had HPDI riggin on your boat?

Re: Honda or Ficht?
 

John rigging was another $1100.00 Certified yamaha mech can install and sign off on warranty

Re: Honda or Ficht?
 

When making a large investment in a outboard its best to deal with your local dealer. You may spend alittle more money but he is the one thats going to work on it if there is a problem. True as a dealer he can not turn it away but you will be sure to go to the bottom of the list. With these new engines and everything that can go wrong with them you want a good relationship with your dealer. THe days of the consumer working on there outboards are over. Believe me you may feel your local dealer is a rip off but most of the times his prices are very fair. There is no markup on a outboard sale. How outboard sales work is the more a dealer buys the bigger check he gets back at the end of the model year. Your larger dealers can afford to sell the engines at or below there cost due to the size of there rebate check they get at the end of the year. Small dealers can not afford to sell there engines at cost and wait for the check to arrive to make there money back. Plus each month the engine sits in inventory at the dealer it cost him 1.2% per month in just floor planning. Its not uncommon for a dealer even a small one to be paying a interest bill of 5,000.00 per month just to inventory about 50 different engine sizes. It cost a dealer alot of money to be one. Dont get me wrong your dealer is making a living but thats about it for 95% of them out there. Support you local dealer and it woill be a win / win for everyone.

Re: Honda or Ficht?
 

Joe - To a point I agree with you but 5000.00
was just to much to leave on the table.

Re: Honda or Ficht?
 

Joe - just as Steve said, there is just TOO much money sometimes not to do what he did. I would sure want to buy local but there are a few crooks out there and more that create their own market of colusion.

You say "Support you local dealer and it woill be a win / win for everyone". What is the break point for what's fair business and not watching out for your money? 5K might not be much for a guy like you but it's a big deral to a guy like me.

Re: Honda or Ficht?
 

I have to side with John R on this one.

There comes a point at which MY economy is more important than that of a barely-breaking-even dealer.

I agree in principle, and if the premium paid to shop local is merely a few hundred dollars, fine. However, if I can save thousands by shoping elsewhere, point me the way.

I suppose Walmart and Amazon can be blamed for the corner store going out of business, but in today's business climate, if you can't be competitive on a national, or at least regional level, someone else will be.

For any dealers reading, don't worry: I bought my engine 200 yards from where my boat is. They just happened to be the cheapest I could find though.

Re: Honda or Ficht?
 

Joe three local dealers told me basicley the same thing.That motor is almost impossible to get. We just happen to have one , one on the way in ,one we just took off a new boat. Translation pay this price or forget it

Re: Honda or Ficht?
 

I demo'ed the 225 Honda on an '89 Grady 24 offshore walk. Nice boat. The motor was a 2002 with 130 hours. It started instantly and we cast of after only 1 minute of warm up. The binacle control was smooth and the motor never hesitated.
It was VERY quite at idle.

The hole shot was more gradual than the punch I'm used to with the 2 stroke, but it was fine. The sweet spot was probably 22 MPH at 3500 RPM. A normal conversation was posible, which I thought was cool. A fast cruise was around 28 MPH at 4750. Still quiet. WOT was 35 MPH at 5800. Still quiet. I thought the WOT was a little slow, but the vessel probably weights 1000 pounds more than my 23 with 1/2 fuel, etc. Coming off plane to a stop, you really could not hear the motor and instinct would tell you that it had stalled.

Maybe it was the boat (which I loved), but I was a little disappointed by the apperant lack of "kick" that even the old 200 Yamaha still has. However, there's not doubt that this motor was a serious machine and you could not make a mistake buying it as long as you knew what to expect.

It weighs just over 600 lbs and looked HUGE. The Ficht weighs 530 and the current 89 Yamaha weights only 460 pounds.

It was incredably luck that the NY, NJ, PA Honda Marine rep drove up just as we finished the trial. I spent 20 min. with him and asked every question I could think of. The most interesting thing he said was that they don't have a problem with the motor being run at WOT for hours on end due to the rev limiter and the engineering that has gone into it. I think that tells me that i could get a fast cruise comperable to a Ficht.

The other interesting thing I found out about the Ficht is that only 10% of the oil used is actually consumed. The oil is pumped into the motor and returned to the the tank except the 10% that is directed to lube the piston/cylinder walls. That's pretty cool.

I'm going to investigate the Yamaha 250 3.3L HPDI (540 lbs) before making a decision. Any comments on this motor?

John R - That old 200 would sit nicely on a bracket on the new 20' Seafari and lose the 4 cyl I/O.

Finster - I was only kidding. You're a great guy (as my Dad used to say), when you're asleep. If the Honda is not thought of well down there, what's the favorite?

I'm still leaning toward the Ficht.

Re: Honda or Ficht?
 

Gentlemen (you too Chris),

Thanks for all the excellent info. I've thought for years that one of the problems in America is the difficulty making decisions when buying big ticket items. The technology is so good in so many competative products, that's you can mind**** yourself for weeks or months. Cars, trucks, computers, on and on...

First, I agree with the Suzuki 250. However, there are no dealers within 200 miles and none on Lake Ontario. Further, the Hudson, NY dealer said November before availability. So that's out.

The Honda 225 installed is $16,800. The Ficht 225 installed is 15,800. Guage packages are 550 to 1100. Evinrude has a guage package called Helmsmen Gateway with fuel management, error codes, etc. that looks pretty nice.

For the sake of comparison, I'm getting a quote on a Yamaha 250 HPDI.

Ya know, it's amazing the oppoisite pros and cons you get from different regions on various motors.

John R - I'm demo-ing a Honda 225 on a 24 Grady walk today. Good suggestion. If I don't choke, I'll consider selling the '89 200. Like I tell my kids, we'll see...

I really appreciate the constructive comments and continued support you guys have offered. Will advise... [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

[ June 04, 2003, 12:13 PM: Message edited by: Otto Cuyler ]

Re: Honda or Ficht?
 

In general, I would have say Yami's all round,for the big 2's & 4's. Suzuki's making a strong second for those 140's and 115's.
I haven't heard anyone say anything positive about Honda's in years, though I have heard quite a few negative's.

Re: Honda or Ficht?
 

If there was a 5,000 dollar difference it was a engine that was sold to a dealer with the boat also. THe boat dealer in turned took it off the boat and sold it that way. THe industry is cracking down on this way of doing business and im surprised someone is still doing this. And yes 5,000 is alot of money to me. Would I have done it probley not. I would have though to good of a deal to be true. Good luck with it.

Re: Honda or Ficht?
 

Joe what do you mean? A dealer with a 35K boat isn't going to break a 16K motor off it and sell it for 11K? Then he throws on a different motor and charges 20K for it? It doesn't add up. I can see a couple maybe even 3 but 5

Re: Honda or Ficht?
 

Joe I wasn't born yesterday the motor is still crated, It"s siting in my garage and he has a few more at that price. Oh ya I probaly will have good luck with it and the $5000.

Re: Honda or Ficht?
 

John it happens all the time. A dealer brings a boat in with lets say a 175. A customer comes in and wants that boat with a 200. The dealer is not going to order in another boat with a 200 on it. Thats what the boat manufacture wants and everyone else in the industry wants him to do. So the dealer pulls the 175 off and installs the 200. Done deal. Now this dealer has a new 175 that he paid around 30% less then regular dealer cost. New boats should not come prepackaged and this would solve this problem. It adds up take the 250 di engine with a dealer cost of 14090. A package dealer takes the 250 off and installs a 200. He now has the 250 and can sell it for under 10000, and still make some money. Its all a number game.

Re: Honda or Ficht?
 

I didnt say you were born yesterday. ANd not all motors come mounted on the transome. Sorry I even put my two cents in, but after being in this game for 15 years I know all the ins and outs when it comes to outboard sales.

Re: Honda or Ficht?
 

OK now boys,

My intention in starting this thread was not to find the best "deal", but to make a good decision for this boat and buy it and have it installed by a reputable on-water dealer that will work with me on the propping and be there when I need him. If I wanted to cheap about it and save money, I'd recondition the 200 Yamaha that came off and reinstall it at virtually no cost. I appreciate everyone's input, but would appreciate it if you guys could continue the dealer vs. no dealer wholesale debate on a seporate thread.

The more I look into it, the Yamaha 200/225 HPDI has my attention. Why?

First, weight is a major consern. These guys are around 470, about the same as the 89 200 I took off and the performance is about the same. The big difference is the MPG, which is about the same as the Honda and Ficht.

Second, if you look at resale value, nobody is going to de-value a 23 SeaCraft with a late model Yamaha.

I spoke with a client friend who runs a 23CC Parker with a Yamaha 200 HPDI out of Beaufort, NC says he's on his third year with no problems, even spark plugs. Most of his offshore buddies like them too.

I'll have pricing tommorrow, which will give me enough info to make an informed decision.

Thanks again for everyone's help. To be continued...

[ June 05, 2003, 09:40 PM: Message edited by: Otto Cuyler ]

Re: Honda or Ficht?
 

Otto the Yam 200 hpdi I believe is based on there 2.6 block which is the same as the 175 and 150. The Evinrude weights more due to its a 3.3 block 90 deg. block. Which one is better who knows. THey all have there advantages and disavantages, there ups and downs. I would go with a 2 stroke di or hpdi over the big 4 strokers out there.

Re: Honda or Ficht?
 

Joe,

Thanks very much for your reply. I agree with you and you're right, who knows. I don't know if you could make a really bad decision with the level of quality accros the board.

Re: Honda or Ficht?
 

Joe - I'm sincerly not trying to bust your stones here and I see a bit of what you are saying - after all, we're having a discussion on a discussion board. I just don't see the difference being 5K and I don't see the guy looking at the boat with a 200 paying 5K more for a 225 to put a motor that didn't come on a boat, with the higher markup. Just doesn't add up...

The 250 Ficht ~cost~ for 14 and change - is that just the motor? With controls & tank?

Thanks,

John

Re: Honda or Ficht?
 

No problem John, dealers that sell this way have a system down. Each sales person knows the game plan. GO to your local dealer and you will not see prices on any of there boats. Before they even start to quote prices you lock in on the engine size reguardless of the engine size thats on the boat. Plus all the other items you want with it. THe salespeople know the base price of the boat only. THey know the base cost of the outboard that was ordered with the boat. ANd they have the base of a bigger or smaller engine plus they know the promo or special that the engine man. is offering to the dealer at the time. 99% of the times a dealer can make alot more money swapping engines and the consumer does not even know whats going on. This is why many times they are trying to push you on a diferent size engine. Its all in the paperwork. THats why at a boat show when they do show a price for everyone to see, it is a show only purchase with what is on that boat. Dont try to upgrade the engine on that boat or your gonna pay for it. Another way these engines get to dealers is lets say a boat company ordered 150 200hps. THey are know getting ready to put out next year product but they still have 50 200hps in stock. There not going to bolt that left over engine on a new boat. SO they call there dealers that they work good with and sell them off to them. No one will admit this is going on but it is. 14 is the engine with battery cables.

Re: Honda or Ficht?
 

Joe,

Thanks for the peak into how it all works. I'm not in the market for a new boat but find this very interesting.

Re: Honda or Ficht?
 

Again, not trying to crack stones here - then how does a certain dealer in VA offer the 250 for 12,5 in the crate ? Priced up on the Internet? Are the costs different by volume at a shop? In the car buisiness, everyone pays the same price. You have a fixed cost and a fixed percentage of holdback on some makes - this holdback often determines if the new car lines actually turn a rare profit - but everyone pays the same. Is that the same with the outboard dealers too? Not counting this engine shipped with boat bit... thanks..

Re: Honda or Ficht?
 

Every dealer pays the same price up frount. Most have a min. buy of 16 engines up frount. No matter how many you buy you get a fixed percentage when the engine is registered. Most engine man. give you around 3%. THe difference comes in at rebate check at the end of the year. There are about 3 levels of buying. You must comment and take dilevery by 3 months into the new model year. THe first level is 16 engines. THe dealer will get around 1.5%. If you take delivery of 26 engines your around 2.5% If you take delivery of 60 engines you may get 6% back. THis comes in a credit for parts purchases. THe only other discount a dealer can get is if he pays cash for his order and does not floor plan the engines. This can range anywhere from 1 to 3%. Thats all the rebates there are. At least thats all there was for the 2003 model year which comes to a close this month. The key to getting a good deal on a engine is to find a dealer that has the engine you need. You have to hope he floor plained it and he has had it for at least 31 days. Thats when he starts to pay interest to the floor plan company. You take the 14000 engine and start paying 1.5% every month on that amount and the cost of that engine starts going up. THe interest he pays does not go towards his cost of the engine. You take a engine that you had in stock for almost a year and now the 2004 will be out in a few weeks you need to dump that engine. We have sold many outboards thru the years at a huge loss just to get rid of them off the floor plan bill. ANd thats the name of the game. THere are no big breaks to any special dealers. Its like I said outboard sales are cut throat. Its very stressfull but keeps you on your toes. Its not uncommon for a dealer to sell way below his cost just to get rid of it. To be a dealer you have to put up with it. Without offering outboard sales you do not get parts or there service schools.