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Building 1 time use mold. input?
I've been commissioned to build a Livewell for sportfish. It will measure roughly 40" wide by 24" high by 16"deep. And it will be visible on three sides and the top, backing up to the transom on the cockpit of the boat. I plan on building a one time use 3 sided custom mold for the job. First I plan to make a template out of wood for the top and bottom roughly in the shape of a capitol D if you were looking from the top down. I then plan to lay-up a rectangle of 1 1/2 ounce mat and resin over gelcoat on a flat waxed melamine board and form it(gelcoat side in) around the top and bottom plywood boards while the fiberglass is still relatively green or before it completely hardens, using screws thru the thin fiberglass laminate into the plywood to hold the shape. I then plan to beef up the outside of the form and lastly lay-up my three sided part in it. I'll add the bottom and back of the well afterwards. the only thing to come from the mold will be a shell with a front two sides and a top. I'm good with glass and paint but I'm wondering if there isn't another material out there that lends itself better to bending a tight radius like the two rounded front corners without breaking. I'm sorry if this looks like Greek to you all, I just know some of you have used some West Products and epoxys which i have no experience with. Any Suggestions are appreciated
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Re: Building 1 time use mold. input?
Hi Dave,
I like your idea and have been thinking kinda along the same lines for my boat however I want a live well that sits behind the leaning post. Per your description the back and bottom of the finished live well does not need to be finished because they will not be seen. And I guess the inside of it does not need to be a smooth finished surface as well? So it sounds like you have a good plan. I've only worked with epoxy so I do not know how long a working time you have with polyester. You can use a slow cure product to give you more working time to get the wrap around the plywood. It may get a little messy if you start too early in the wrap process if the epoxy or polyester has not kicked. I worry a little about buckeling of the material in places in between the two pieces of plywood. If that happens you may need to add capital C piece of plywood to support the outside middle of the mold. You can use very small finish nails (the ones with no head)to hold the piece of fiberglass to the middle piece of plywood. If done carefully you will not need to putty over them. I've used formica and hard board for my molds and I really like the hard board as it is cheap and easy to work with. It comes in two sizes at Home Depot... I think 1/8 and 1/4 inch and has a very smooth surface. As far as how long it will take to make the throw away mold? Hard to say but i'm thinking no more then 3-4 hours max if you have all your ducks in a row. I'm thinking that for my boat I will buy a Kodiak live well and just build a mold for a cover that goes around it as part of the leaning post/live well combo. I dont trust my ability as a plumber so I prefer to buy a tank with all the fittings attached already. Below is a pic of the stern of my old boat. The middle hatch is that of a Kodiak tank enclosed in the stern of the boat. Hope some of this helps. http://www.casdvm.com/photos/DSCN0677.JPG Strick |
Re: Building 1 time use mold. input?
Strick - did you make that Leaning Post? Curious what plans you have for your custom livewell/leaning post
70s - I have a question / thought and don't know if it would work... What are the chances you can core it with some kind of closed cell insulation - instead of plywood? You won't need the structural benifit of plywood, right? So what other materials can you core with? As for closed cell, are there any panels that are flexible enough to be the core? Or another thought, if you made up a mold of something flexible (vinyl for instance) could you pour your core of closed cell insulation and then lay up the glass around it... Just something I've been bouncing around with in the tiny mind Next - I'm not sure about the baits you suthnern guys use but some of the ones we use up north, herring and mackeral, need to be able swim around a tank with no corners. If there are any corners, they tend to collect there and eventually not get enough circulation thru the gills and go kaput... |
Re: Building 1 time use mold. input?
Thanks Strick,
I was hoping you'd chime in. I agree with you on that middle part flexing . After I posted last night I thought about Laying up the flat skin on the hardboard in three sessions. First the gel coat on the entire part. Then a skin coat of 1/2 oz glass and 1/4 inch coreboard in three peices( sort of like a tri fold wallet. I believe that this would stifen the three sides and still leave a thin layer of glass to bend around the radius on each side. Then finally a layer of 1 oz in each of the radius before tacking it to the plywood mold. |
Re: Building 1 time use mold. input?
Dave,
You might check out some baltec core material, it is scored for making radius'sssss. I believe you can get it in foam or balsa, and in different thickness'sssss. It may be a bit more work, but the coring material my help insulate the live well, and you can still gelcoat it or paint it. A buddy of mine enclosed the windows on his 31 Bertram, he used this stuff, if you know a 31 bertram you know the weird curves on the front outboard windows. Hope this helps, JW |
Re: Building 1 time use mold. input?
John an JW,
You must have been posting the same time as I was. I hear what your saying and i'm planning on using a coring material in three places on the outer skin of the mold. Leaving two 3 inch gaps between the sections that will form the corners. The coring will be running vertical to the top and bottom of tank. I'm hoping this will stiffen the three sides and prevent buckling while allowing me to bend the still green fiberglass around the D shaped base and D Shaped top (3/4 Ply) and form the two radius curves in the front before it completely kicks. I then plan to add core board to the radius to keep it from trying to lay flat after the base board is removed. This is just going to be a flimsy single use mold to lay up the actual fiberglass part . As I lay up the part itself I may use some coring material as well to stiffen and insulate. We pretty much bottom fish here with Shrimp, Pinfish, and grunts. All pretty hardy baits. I find that good water flow is the most crucial, they don't tend to bunch into corners. however, I plan on forming a clay radius on all corners of the mold before laying up the actual part. Keep the input coming, I appreciate it. |
Re: Building 1 time use mold. input?
Dave,
An easy way to do it would be to use a plastic container from someone such as Rubbermaid. Home Depot, office supply, and toy stores might be a good place to look for your mold. Wax the container then use a non-waxed gel coat and coat the inside. Then just glass it. You can add core material as well for insulation. Great thing about the rotational molded plastics, they have a taper built into the part, and your piece should pull right out. If not, just cut it off. Further more, the plastic totes and garbage cans come in all shapes and sizes, even stating the volume in gallons . They have relief’s in the sides that will add to its strength. You’ll have a great looking fish box in no time at all. [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img] Jim |
Re: Building 1 time use mold. input?
Cool - if you can, can you document with pics how you do it?
Thanks, John |
Re: Building 1 time use mold. input?
Good Idea Jim,
But I'm very confined to the size and type of well I need . It has to cover or blend to a nonskid outline already on the dck of the boat. I bought the Melamine board yesterday and I'll photo the process for better or worse to show how it comes out. I'm considering doing one the sixe of a shoebox to see if and at what point the laminents will bend. I'll keep you posted. |
Re: Building 1 time use mold. input?
Dave- Sounds like you got it figured pretty good and it's probably going to work just fine. Looking forward to the pics. The only thing I would do different is make the flexable part of the mold out of hard board rather then using a laminate espically if you are going to throw it away when you are finished. I think it would be quick and the 1/8 inch hard board would bend very easily around the plywood has a smooth shiney surface and is easy to cut.
John- I made the leaning post out of a piece of plastic bent at a 90 degree angle. then I laminated two pieces of plywood at a 90 degree angle slightly narrower then the plastic base. The Vinyl cushion is attached to the plywood backing and then it is bolted to the plastic base. There are some handles on either side of the leaning post that are hard to see in the pic. It's a quickie job and I've always thought that I would add a tackle center to the underside rear of the post but never did. Not sure exactly what I'm going to do on the new boat as of yet.... still thinking about the stern [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Strick Strick |
Re: Building 1 time use mold. input?
Strick,
Where do you get the hardboard you are talking about. I bought Melamine board 5/8 in which is particle board with a plastic white coating on each side. Its very hard and smooth and I plan on using it for the inside top of the mold and bottom. I've been reffering to it in the posts as plywood but it is called Melamine at Home Depot. The type of stuff you would make cabinet shelves out of. I didn't see anything that would make a rounded 90 degree bend. If there is a board that will make the bend without breaking I'll use it. Let Me know. Thanks Dave. |
Re: Building 1 time use mold. input?
Dave-
I get the Hard board from HD as well. They dont carry it all the time and that can be a problem... you remember the stuff called pegboard that has a million little holes in it? well this stuff is like it minus the holes. Comes in two sizes(i think 1/8 and 1/4) has one very very smooth side and one rough side and is very flexible. You may have to call several lumbaryards to find it I think it is used for indoor paneling. Strick |
Re: Building 1 time use mold. input?
I was just at a HD today buying 'stuff' and went to check out the hardboard material. I have never made a mold and will attempt within the next 2-3 months.
Strick, how much can that stuff bend ? I am starting to think-out a tackle center box that mounts to the floor and mounts my ped seats ( that I don't own yet ). Anybody ever see this done ? If so, have you got dimensions ? What core would you use here ? Also, how would you make the mounting lip/flange on the bottom - inward or outward ? Thx, alan |
Re: Building 1 time use mold. input?
I have a "tackle center" that came on the boat and the short pedastals mount on top. I'm not big on it so I'm removing it in favor of a leaning post and slipping a livewell underneath... It's old but I can probably take a pic if you are interested....
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Re: Building 1 time use mold. input?
John,
I thought you had a center console ? Is your tackle center for a center console ? I have a 23' Tsunami - you think what you have will work for my application ? If so, send me a pix, pls. Either way, I'll need (2) boxes; helm and passenger. I have a feeling I will end up building a mold one way or another - but hey you never know- Thx, alan Alan |
Re: Building 1 time use mold. input?
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Re: Building 1 time use mold. input?
abl1111- My brother bending 1/8 inch hardboard.
http://www.casdvm.com/photos/DSCN3115.JPG 3/8-1/5 inch core cell. Make lip/flange inward. Strick |
Re: Building 1 time use mold. input?
John - That is the exact idea of what I want to do. I think that I will be able to get away w/ a wider version of that one, giving me more storage area. What is the dimension of yours ? And what make seats are those? I am looking for seats like those. [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
Strick - WOW ! That stuff does bend ! When you do make a mold, I assume you build the outside frame first - then you attach the hardboard - but how do you attach the hardboard, w/ small nails and then smooth over ? And, in an application like mine ( a rectangular-box ), I would have 90 degree corners on the inside - I know you use epoxy, fileted and smoothed out to achieve the smooth radius corners. Can you use clay there instead ? Thx, Alan |
Re: Building 1 time use mold. input?
abl111- you can glue the hardboard with "Liquid Nails" or use small finish nails (ones without a flat head) to attach to frame. Or use both. I've tried clay but not had as good a luck with it as with microbubbles in epoxy. Microbubbles sand very easily once hard. A good fiberglass shop should be able to set you up. Is there a "Fiberglass Hawaii" in your area? There is one two hours from my home and the head guy there used to build boats for a living and is very helpful when I have questions about all the products... of course I've spent more then a few bucks there [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]
Good Luck |
Re: Building 1 time use mold. input?
ABL - the seats are from Todd. Once piece seats plus the cushions... Not sure on the dimensions but I can look that up over the next couple days. The seats Might get reused but also might go up on Ebay...
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Re: Building 1 time use mold. input?
Strick,
Can I use polyester w/ micrb's instead of $$$epoxy$$$ ?? Thx, Alan |
Re: Building 1 time use mold. input?
Alan- I'm sure you can but I've never tried it. The odor of Polyester is too much for it's use in the close quarters of my garage.
Strick |
Re: Building 1 time use mold. input?
We make 1 time molds all the time in our shop, using whatever wood type products you can (such as thin ply or hardboard) to get the shapes you want. Put some ribs on the back (outside) once you are satisfied with the shape. You can then radius the corners at the top with bondo and fill any nail holes as well. We then spray the tool with gelcoat and give it a quick sand, and then use a spray on release agent like PVA (water based) to make sure it the molded part releases. You can then spray gelcoat right onto the PVA and mold away. You will have to do a bit of final sanding on the gel once the part is done, as the PVA will have a small amount of texture that will print on the gel surface.
Works great and you do not have to use any expensive boat bulding type materials (core cel or balsa) to make your mold. Good luck, Peter |
Re: Building 1 time use mold. input?
Bingo !!! With all the input form you guys, I have it in my mind what needs to be done to make the mold. Thx all around !!!
Last question(s): When installing a 3/4" plywood "top" ( the part where the pedestal seat will mount), at what point do I install this prefitted pc ? Does this sound right ? Gelcoat should be semi-cured. Wet out and laminate the entire inside of the box, then place the wood on the top ( weighted down w/ something to make a nice bond )? After cured, sand top area and w/ wetout mat, sandwich the wood? Thx, Alan |
Re: Building 1 time use mold. input?
Dave,
The melamine will give you a slight pebbled finish to the gel coat. It won’t be a glass like finish. Hardboard is also referred to as MDF or Medium Density Fiberboard |
Re: Building 1 time use mold. input?
Ok let me throw a little diffrent way.
Here are pix's of a custom instrument pod I built. MDF is a good product to work with if you need a very flat and stable panel too. I used 3/8in Diveacell for this. You can heat it with a heat gun and form it very easy. It holds it's shape to add glass to. I built a form. http://www.classicmako.com/projects/...Inspodmold.jpg In this pix you can see it's clamped on the side to start with and the 2X4 with clamps is to hold it tight to the mold. It was then heated some more to relive the tension. http://www.classicmako.com/projects/...es/Inspod3.jpg http://www.classicmako.com/projects/...es/Inspod4.jpg http://www.classicmako.com/projects/...es/Inspod1.jpg http://www.classicmako.com/projects/...es/Inspod5.jpg Then it was cut on a angle to get it the way I wanted it. http://www.classicmako.com/projects/...ages/Helm2.jpg A back and front were added and glassed inside and out. This same methiod could be used on a larger scale for the livewell. [ January 01, 2004, 11:21 AM: Message edited by: warthog5 ] |
Re: Building 1 time use mold. input?
Damnit if that wasn't me and Scott on Ed's Boat A/K/A "The Sticky Towel"
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Re: Building 1 time use mold. input?
Wow! What a welcome. Thank You for the nice complements. [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
We are all pushing for the same goal. "To Make Our Boat's Better" [ January 02, 2004, 12:20 AM: Message edited by: warthog5 ] |
Re: Building 1 time use mold. input?
Hey Warthog
Even thou it's not a SeaCraft, it appears in your pictures that the Classic Mako members use the same tools (that all familiar liquid asset) [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img] How about these: [img]images/icons/cool.gif[/img] http://www.planetboredom.net/downloa...ion=file&id=25 |
Re: Building 1 time use mold. input?
Good to have you aboard Warthog! For anyone that does not already know, Warthog is pretty much the boat restoring/building guru over on THT and the brand new site "Classic Mako" here is a link showing some of his fine work. http://www.classicmako.com/projects/xshark.htm
Strick |
Re: Building 1 time use mold. input?
Ebeach,
thanks on the heads up. I did notice a slight pebble finish on the Melamine. I figure that I'm most likely going to paint the final part so it should come out in the sanding and priming. I'm going to pop the mold skin in a half hour. I've been taking pictures as I've progressed so I'll post on monday when I'm back in the shop. |
Re: Building 1 time use mold. input?
Well,
This has been a difficult process to say the least. [img]images/icons/frown.gif[/img] 1st try- layed up the fiberglass skin on the molding table, bent it around the wood frame and reinforced with core board on the radius's. It looked great but I could feel the radius was concave by about 1/8 inch inside the mold. Scrapped it. [img]images/icons/mad.gif[/img] 2nd try- Formica was suggested so I bought a $40 dollar sheet, glued a 1 by 2 frame to stiffen it, bent it around the wood frame, sunk a few screws in the radius and then accidentally let go. Sure enough It tried to snap back to origional shape and cracked the formica. [img]images/icons/mad.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/mad.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/mad.gif[/img] At this point tools were flying. I'm now on the third try with formica and another $40 board. Hope to be more cautious this time. I'll post pics after it works [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img] |
Re: Building 1 time use mold. input?
Sorry it took so long but heres some pics of the process to date. I popped the well out today and it came out pretty good. My fwd radius came out well and the glossy formica gave a flawless finish. I took a suggestion from someone to use a good grade of silicone for the top radius instead of clay.. Bad Idea. that whole corner came out soft and gooey. Will have to build that corner myself. I planned on having finish work and painting anyway. Still have to cut to the final fit size and add the back and bottom , but the hars stuff is pretty much behind me.
http://www.theboatzone.com/gallery/v...umName=album13 I'm short on time, Gotta pick up the little one from school so I'll check back and post more as I go progress. Thanks for all the input. It all helped. |
Re: Building 1 time use mold. input?
Looks really good Dave. I like how you made the recessed area for the lid. I did not think to do that for my transom cap and it would have saved me tons of time that I've taken to make the hatch areas look good. What is the brown material that you used in the first few pics that wrapped around the top and bottom. Also it looks like the formica wrapped easily around the corners. Some of the formica I've seen is kinda brittle and wants to break if you make too sharp a bend. Did you have any trouble doing that? Again nice work.
Strick |
Re: Building 1 time use mold. input?
Strick,
The brown material is heavy paper. I used it to get an idea of what the finished part would look like. I used formica and although it bent around the corner it had to be held down pretty tight. It took two people. YOu also have to sink your screws thru a peice of wood to distribute the stress across the whole peice of formica or it will shatter. I shattered my first try. $42.00 later I was a little more careful. Still have a lot of work to do to it. |
Re: Building 1 time use mold. input?
For those still following I finally finished it. here are some pics. It was installed this weekend. Owner was really happy [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
http://www.theboatzone.com/albums/al...0289.thumb.jpg http://www.theboatzone.com/albums/al...0299.thumb.jpg http://www.theboatzone.com/albums/al...0298.thumb.jpg |
Re: Building 1 time use mold. input?
All the pics here.
http://www.theboatzone.com/gallery/album13/DSC00245 |
Re: Building 1 time use mold. input?
Wow great job.. your hired! [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] Did you coat the inside with anything? and how was it plummed
Strick |
Re: Building 1 time use mold. input?
Hi strict, and thanks
I gelcoated the inside with a brush and plumbed it with a stand pipe and a sureflow baitmaster mag drive pump and went straight out the transom with a stainless 1 1/2 thru hull drain. Using the Lenght times width times height divided by 231 formula it came up with 38 1/2 gallons. I was also able to get away with Gel Coat on the outside as well. When I matched the color to the boat I saved a pint and used it for touch up on the outside. |
Re: Building 1 time use mold. input?
Dave,
Very nice work. Since the well is rectangular, are you worried about the bait bunching up in the corners, or is the inside rounded off? |
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