23 Self-bailing deck history ?
 

Are there certain years where the 23 actually had scuppers out the back, rather than the deck bailing into the bilge? Do current, non-classic, SCs bail through scuppers or into the bilge? What years were/are considered "sinkers" because of the deck bailing issue?

Thanks.

Re: 23 Self-bailing deck history ?
 

Mooncusser,
I could be wrong, but I believe starting in 1980 CSY moved the scuppers to the transom. My father's '82 has them this way. Leaking through-deck drains and decks below the water line are what started the "SinkCraft" name.

Re: 23 Self-bailing deck history ?
 

SinkCraft [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

My Potter built '78 self bails thru the deck pipes and 90* out the transom [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] I think older years went straight thru the bottom of the boat as my hull still has the indentation in the mold. The Boat has too much foam to sink but I would assume that if If someone's boat filled with water, it had to enter the rear vents or the OB cable outlets due too excessive weight at the stern. A combination of twins, excessive number of people, the baitwell being full and non-working bilge pumps. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Re: 23 Self-bailing deck history ?
 

I've heard most of those that go under do so when tied up in a slip and heavy rains fill the bilge. That's what I've heard. I think there were changes made a few times to the scuppers and the way the decks drained. I'm trying to get an idea of what years those changes were made and what the changes were.

Re: 23 Self-bailing deck history ?
 

FWIW, my 20' 1979 MA drains through the transom, while a buddy’s 1978 drains through the bottom. According to the hull id, my outer hull came out of the mold in 9/78, while his was struck in 5/78. I know you asked about a 23, but I thought this might give some insight anyway.

Also, I think the sinking issue could be from water getting past the hatch in the splash well and into the bilge. That area is usually wet from wave action at the stern.

Re: 23 Self-bailing deck history ?
 

Also the plugs being left installedduring a heavy rain leaving the water no where to go except in the bilge, and relying on one of those damn 10$ float switches that fail frequently. (I had a Mako sink at the pier back in the early eighties in this manner)Another police inboard like mine sunk here when they had for some reason put a crab dreging rig on the stern and left it tied up to a pier. I dont know if the plugs were left in or out but that was a lot of weight on the stern, but she sank like a rock. I also know of or have heard of them sinking from the scupper tube breaching between the inner and outer hull allowing water to fill the bilge. I fixed this by removing the old tubes, filling the holes with west system, redrilling the holes. right now they are just holes that my plugs fill in and lock. When I haul out soon I will install new tubes both inside and outside using the tubes sold at West marine and some 5200. The single 6" tube that has to be rolled,flared etc is no longer required. I actually like the scuppers going thru the deck especially when moored because most of the rainwater travels down towards the stern and out of the boat instead of into the bilge. JMO

Re: 23 Self-bailing deck history ?
 

I can speak as a 1987 23' owner who's boat sank(not under my ownership though!) the scuppers had nothing to do with it, but they can be a nuisance when it comes to cleaning because the deck channels tend to mildew from standing water. I imagine it would be pretty bad with twins on the back, since my single 225 leaves the scuppers right on the waterline. They've discharged rain water efficently in every storm that's come through since I 've had the boat, which includes a few hurricanes. The previous owner let the boat sink by not charging the batteries prior to a hurricane which left him with no bilge pump, but a great deal on a boat for me!

Re: 23 Self-bailing deck history ?
 

I have a 78 MA, that sank at the dock from a combination of things [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

--bilge that wasn't working properly.still not sure if it was battery or old wiring.
--water being blown up over low transom and leaking in around the bilge access cover in splash well and down into bilge.

I really don't know if the through deck scuppers had anything to do with it??? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: 23 Self-bailing deck history ?
 

Recently found out from the original owner that my 71 Seafari was a "sinker". Not sure how but it has the 6" brass flared tubes throught the deck. It only drains at slow speed or at rest with min. weight at the stearn; if I run with the plugs out water comes in like a fountain! When the fish box is full your feet get wet! Anyone else with this problem? Any suggestions?

Re: 23 Self-bailing deck history ?
 

It's interesting to note that the majority of the sinkings were due to a lack of maintainence and/or attention on the part of the owner/operator. Most of what has been stated can pretty much be anticipated and prevented. Murphy's law has a seporate sub-section just for boats.

I firmly believe that these boats were not designed to be left in a slip for long periods of time without a full mooring cover, lift or trailer. My $.02.

Re: 23 Self-bailing deck history ?
 

John,
Was the original owner with you Sunday morning in the Back River? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] That was me in my father's SC, wearing the blue shirt, waving to you and your dad as we left the fuel dock.

Re: 23 Self-bailing deck history ?
 

“BOATS ARE LIKE WOMEN” if you flat out ignore them, or if you don’t pay enough attention to the small details that they consider important, or if you don’t treat them with a loving relationship they will find some way to get your attention and when it is all over with “YOU WILL” wish you did pay more attention to them when they started trying to tell you something. As for the scupper thing I don’t know of any SeaCraft that drained water directly into the bilge they go from the deck through the bottom of the boat. If the Scuppers are plugged up then water will find a hatch that does have a hole that does drain into the bilge and if you don’t have a bilge pump that doesn’t work correctly Well Guess What? It’s kind a like NOT spending any time, money, relationship, dinner, and well you know, everything else that is needed to get you wife to respond to a smelly fisherman like everyone that is reading this post. Be true to you boat and she will never let you down. I went fishing Sat night and heard some one on the VHF in trouble ended up that his live well was running and filling up the bilge some sort of hose problem I guess, well guess what? The bilge pump didn’t work either and no flares on the boat. “On my boat I always have 2 bilge pumps”. If you don’t care about your self think of your poor loving sweetheart that right “YOUR BOAT” that you are treating like crap.
FellowShip [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: 23 Self-bailing deck history ?
 

get you wife to respond to a smelly fisherman like everyone that is reading this post. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] I resemble that remark!!!

Seems to me live wells and those 19.95 float switches sink more boats than anything- ive been hearing plenty of horror stories from live wells it seems lately. worse yet when they fail to put a seacock inboard of the thru-hull fitting and the hose/whatever develops a leak !!!! [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: 23 Self-bailing deck history ?
 

Attention is paramount when dealing with a boat in the water. I'd wager the majority of people on the water today don't spend near enough time or effort to properly maintain a boat. That's just from personal experiences with a good number of people who have docked their junk at my house. We've had to call several to tell 'em their boat was sinking and they better come do something about it quick. not to mention the puzzled looks from questions about the last time they changed lower unit oil or water pump impellers, etc....

Re: 23 Self-bailing deck history ?
 

My '72 23' CC has the scuppers straight out the bottom. When the decks were replaced, we replaced the tubes rolled ends and all. Also increased the diameter to 1". The boat seems to sit high in the water with a single engine and they work real well!

Re: 23 Self-bailing deck history ?
 

Doghouse,

I have little tolerence for those types that think you can own a boat, keep it in the water and think (hope?) that it starts and runs when they show up. Unbelievable...

Re: 23 Self-bailing deck history ?
 

I concur. I think it just comes from lack of knowledge, mixed with a good dose of laziness!! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: 23 Self-bailing deck history ?
 

Scott - Just saw your post; been out fishing or pulling my pots every night for the past week. Hey, someones got to do it. My dad wasn't the original owner, he stole it many yrs. ago from a guy who had to get rid of it to pay the Dr. bills when he had his 1st kid. I found out about the "Sinkcraft" because the guy and his kid are my auto mechanics! I think there has been a little payback $$$ going on when I bring the old GMC in for repairs! The "71" was "rode hard and put away wet" for many yrs. by my dad who felt that duct tape was the ultimate repair tool. I have progressed beyond that stage and have added 5200 to my preferred repair methods. P.S. Before some of you "purists" get down on my maintainance methods keep in mind that my "71" is all original, has been fished harder than most and is still floating! (as of this AM!)Hey I might even break down and replace the 85 Evinrude in a few years!

Re: 23 Self-bailing deck history ?
 

my 1979 23 foot SC is self bailing through the scuppers. it is not a bilge bailing boat.

Re: 23 Self-bailing deck history ?
 

You know what else lets water in that combined with a failing bilge float switch will sink you? Thoes darn bilge vents. On all of the 20's I have owned the first thing I do is fill them in. When I was 10 yrs old<1980> I was out on my dad's friends 1977 20' on a rough day trolling off of Miami. The vents let in more water than air and we ended up -- upside down 5 mile offshore.

Re: 23 Self-bailing deck history ?
 

I am still reading though all the replies. This issue is sadly near and dear to my heart. I have a '73 23' Tsunami, it had a '95 OMC king Cobra IO. Now I always had issue with the wt of the power pckg in the aft of the boat. When standing in the rear, water would back up and into the boat, with two or more fishing in the aft, we were in 2" of water. My fear was that the engine well lip was only 4" and that if for any reason water got high in the cockpit, it could and would spill over into the bilge and quickly start a sinking situation.

Can you convert from the verticle drains to something out the back? I suspect that the problem is that the floor sole is just too close to the waterline?

Has this discussion lead to a "best practice" for correcting the "wet floor" problem.

-Sean

Re: 23 Self-bailing deck history ?
 

I have a newer sceptre (88), with an outboard. It has the same problem. I did 2 things to "help" the problem.
1. I put rabud sculper covers on the back, and they have the checkball in them that limits water coming it.
2. I installed a pump inside the top of the livewell with a float switch mounted near the top of the livewell. If water comes in much, it goes into the live well, if it gets high enough to trip the switch, it drains out.
Not a perfect solution, but the rabuds keep 90% of the water out. If I get a wave over the back or am backing down on a fish, it gets the water out pretty fast.

Re: 23 Self-bailing deck history ?
 

Well, you sort of answered your own question with the notion that the floor is simply too close to water level - it is.

The only thing that I can figure is that either engines were lighter in weight 25 years ago (seems to be the case), or that people were lighter 25 years ago (also seems to be the case).

Re: 23 Self-bailing deck history ?
 

So, in lieu of us all losing weight (not likely) how difficult would it be raising the floor level (stringer level) in a Sceptre? I've seen where lots of guys have done it with center consoles, mostly 20'ers, but I dont remember seeing any reference to this being done in a Sceptre.

Steve

Re: 23 Self-bailing deck history ?
 

Thanks Dude

Now I know why http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung...l/Fool/hah.gif"I" was made to stand at your transom to test the 2.5" deck raise theory in your 20'.
Thank God I don't have that problem in my 23' http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung...smiley-044.gif

Re: 23 Self-bailing deck history ?
 

Regarding the possibility of raising the floor. When I redid my Tsunami, I had the deck lifted off and had the stringers inspected, we looked at installing cross beams down the length of the boat to raise the floor up 2". I thought I could hide the increase and keep the beautiful sheer lines of the 23 with a wider rubrail design. It was a killer job that beat me in the end. We could not get it correct, so we just pulled the plug on the idea, Put the deck back on in original config, and put it back together again. But someone better at it than me, could pull it off. 2" is all you need, and the rubrail can easily handle that distraction. I do not like those boats with a lot of hull above the rub rail, but this 2" did not really show.

I did replace the original extruded alum, rubrail with same, expensive ($900.-Taco), but the older clean lines of the solid alum. rail looked better in my opin than the later plastic or rubber ones.

Has anyone with a 23' closed the verticle drains and ran scuppers out the aft end? Maybe that is what was desribed above, but I did not catch that from the product name mentioned? I was also thinking that if they were moved aft, that also inward would be better as there is less distance from the center of pivot, the outside always drops deeper than the center, am I making sense with this?

Need the feed back.

-sean

Re: 23 Self-bailing deck history ?
 

I see what you mean- the cap and floor, are they integral- ie one piece? I've always pictured just cutting out the floor (around the edges), raising (and probably repairing or replacing) the stringers, and then glassing the floor back on without taking the cap off. But if it's all one piece, I can see this getting complicated.

Steve

Re: 23 Self-bailing deck history ?
 

It would be one piece to start with.

A.) then cut out just the floor
B.) then raise stringers
C.) then glass new floor in

Now it's one piece all over again [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: 23 Self-bailing deck history ?
 

As my one piece deck was removed and already off for inner hull inspection anyway.....that's what led to my trying the floor up idea.

I was also trying to preserve the inside gunwall(sp) hgt. as I have young children and did not want to loose any safety in the side wall hgt.

I had a Mako CC and a Proline CC before that, we got tired of the lack of wind and sun protection for the family that the CC presented. The SC 23 Tsunami is timeless in it's sleek great looks. I don't think you can buy a 23 cuddy today that look and handle like the SC 23 Tsunamis do.

Thanks for all the feed back.....keep it coming.

-sean

Re: 23 Self-bailing deck history ?
 

yeah, you do lose freeboard when you raise the floor....a bit of a trade-off [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: 23 Self-bailing deck history ?
 

I could be wrong on this one, but I don't think anyone on this site has raised the floor of their 23, be it a CC or cuddy. With that said, most 23 owners have an outboard (either on the transom or bracket), so maybe the scupper issue isn't as difficult to deal with as it is with the weight of an I/O??? However, I do know what that scupper problem can be like in a Sceptre with a big block. Last summer I had the chance to see Chris Downey's '77(?) with a Merc 7.4, and he had water on the deck with 2 guys standing in the stern.

Most guys that have raised the deck have a 20 so you may not get as much 23-specific feedback on the subject.

Re: 23 Self-bailing deck history ?
 

I would concerned as well about changing the center of gravity as well.

Re: 23 Self-bailing deck history ?
 

Finster

I think you need to contact BP and score a second SeaMark Bracket [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
Two fat guys like me coupled with that bad azz Merc your center of gravity on that der Vette has just shifted from "Cat-a-Tonic" to "RocketMan" http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung...smiley-063.gif

BTW: My boat gets it's Seamark Bracket /Transom enclosed start next week..... http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung...smiley-027.gif

Re: 23 Self-bailing deck history ?
 

I can see why no one would raise the deck on a 23....there seams to be no easy way. You can see from all the responses, there is a lot to consider. The floor system is more complex in the Sceptre/Tsunami models too vs. a CC. I thought my original idea, while the deck was already off, to just use 2" cross beams, but believe me, it is just not that easy.
The big block IO is the guilty party, but the change over to bracket and outboard is too expensive over the simple drop in price of a crated eng/IO pckg. I have said, the difference is easily $5000. and it isn't easy to digest the IO pckg price as is.
I would prefer the bracket and outboard as I guess from responses, is the concensus among readers here. But I don't already own an outboard and the transon is already redone for the IO....
Keep talking to me.....it ain't in yet?
-sean

Re: 23 Self-bailing deck history ?
 

Sogilmore,

I’m in the same position as you. 73’ Tsunami with an I/O package, in need of a repower. The boat came with a Ford 302, with Merc II transmission and a Merc II TRS (31 years old). I’m not sure how the boat floats with this package since I’ve never had it in the water. I’ve just replaced the Transom with 2 sheets of ¾ plywood. FWIW, the wood weighed in at 90lbs before the install. It would break my heart to repower and find that water ends up on the deck! My best option would be to launch the boat, and then hump about 1,000 lbs of weight and put it into the engine box. It wouldn’t simulate the out drive weight perfectly because the drive would be further back, but would probably get the job done.

I see no reason for a large block motor in that boat. A 5.0 or 5.7 liter engine would be more than enough. I believe Alan from this site installed a Merc Horizon 300 Hp Bravo 3 in his Tsunami and got 50 mph. He hasn’t posted in a while, and is probably enjoying his “new” boat.

I’m very disappointed in Merc’s inability to come up with an innovative design for the stern drive. My 30 year old out drive design is no different than what they’re putting out the door today! They’re website also lacks technical information on there products. How about an installation drawing guys? I’m leaning toward Volvo’s Ocean series since they're the only company that has been able to think out side the box. Marine Diesel's 6.5 liter engine package is within about 100 lbs of Merc’s 5.7 gas.

How about moving the engine forward to the gas tank area, using a jackshaft and saddle tanks in the stern? The baitwell is useless anyhow.

Re: 23 Self-bailing deck history ?
 

Jim - if you offered us enough beer, I'm sure you could coax me, Trayder, JohnR, Ed Mancini and a few other "locals" down to be your ballast! Heck, maybe Ed would even hang off the back and kick to simulate the outdrive. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: 23 Self-bailing deck history ?
 

I got flippers [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] I'll bring my wetsuit and kick like a bastard. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
I may be up your way next month anyway for a fimily shin-dig.

Re: 23 Self-bailing deck history ?
 

EBEACH
You and I have very similar projects going. Where are you in CT? I am in Southport, exit #19 off I-95.

I had a 454 king cobra IO pckg in it before....it ran just under 54 mph (GPS). What a ride....these hulls are supernatural. I love how they bank in turns.

I would love a diesel pckg, but thought that they were no where near the wt. of the 5.0 & 5.7 ltr. Mercs you refernced. Volvo does mate the new composite outdrive to a diesel now. No more info on that is known by me.
Have you gotten a quote on the complete pckg yet? I would be interested to know the $$ damages are. Maybe we can get a discount if buy TWO! PM me if you would.
As for the jack-shaft...I am not fan of them. And I do not want to engage in that level of cockpit redesign. I do know of a Tsunami/Sceptre that was an IB that went w/ a Yanmar 230 hp. It was a nice set up but "expensive", so I was told.
My fuel tanks are on center line std tank mid ship is 45 gal. and an after market install fwd 30 gal., under the floor between the pilot and mates seats. I will send you an email w/ a pic of my boat's existing waterline. Check it out against what you know about your's. My waterline is perfectly 1" under the top of the green bottom paint all the way around. Check the bow entry too, use the lifting strakes as a reference point (where they come together at the bow), under the chine and spray rail.
Email me yr email address in a PM if is not found here in the forum site.
-Sean <sogilmore@hotmail.com>

Re: 23 Self-bailing deck history ?
 

My 23 has 7.4 volvo with FWC and a douprop. If i pull the plugs the water will come in and out with the boat rocking. But it will not hold more than about an 1 inch. Would be nice if the deck didn't hold any water but the plugs work fine and it does not seem to be that big of a deal. I brought it up in another post and i seems like there is no easy fix. Friend of mine has a 2002 18 wellcraft fisherman cc that holds more water than that in the back. I've got a 2000gph and 1500gph bilge pumps. One on a float and one on a switch, both work good and i made sure bilge is free of any debris. I also installed a high water alarm that comes on just after the bilge pump does just in case a fwc line comes of and starts pumping water in the boat will im under way. A boat is a lot like a marriage if you don't take care of it, it won't last long!!!!!Oh ya and there EXPENSIVE!
[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: 23 Self-bailing deck history ?
 

I'm in Hartford. That sounds like an odd fuel tank setup. I'm pretty sure the one that was in my boat is original, and in perfect condition, located just forward of the baitwell. 72 Gals. One more claim to fame for Carl Mosley; he invented the drain plug.

I'm still waiting on a price quote on the 200hp diesel. I think it's going to come in around 23k with install, and Bravo 1 diesel drive. About 16k as a bobtail unit. Jones Inlet marina down in Freeport, NY has a 300hp stern unit in a 25 Grady White. They said come on down any time to go out for a ride.

Scott, thanks for the idea, but I really don't think you guys would want to come all the way to Hartford, to sit in an empty SeaCraft, regardless of the beer count. You’re welcome here anytime though if you like.