Stringer/Transom area question
 

I started the "pull apart" this morning on a 23 Sceptre, in preperation of a bracket and closed transom. This boat must of been built on New Years Day, ugggghh, it's ugly.

When I pulled the floor up, I noticed that one of the 2 pieces that are mounted just inside the stringers had broken loose. These are close to 3' long each, on each side, about 8" wide, and 5" high. The other side was barely hanging on, it took me about 2 min to pry it loose. From the looks of things, they have been loose for many years. The kicker is they weighed at least 75 pounds each, and were solid/hard. This piece sits just inside of the stringers, and at one time might of been foam???

Question, are these structural, and do I need to put something back in their place. I don't think they have been doing anything but adding weight to the back of the boat for many years. I like the idea of having the extra room for the new in floor fish box, and leaving them out, but I want to make sure they weren't there for any structural purpose. The only thing I could think of, was maybe the live well rest on top of them??? to give support?

This is the second time this month I have run into this. Saw it on a Savage earlier this month. These were put in after the hull and stringers were laid up, and after they shot the inside of the hull with gel-coat. They did not prep the glass before they shot gelcoat/paint on the inside, and the gelcoat gave way, and everything popped loose. The stringer is also loose on the port side, and I am going to have to pull the gas tank to fix it, and check the other side. They did a lousy job of glassing it to begin with, I will shoot some pictures. Also, all the wood underneath the gas tank, and the wood in the back of it is shot. The gas tank seems to be wider than the clearance through the cap. Has anyone run into this? do you tilt it up on it's side to get it out?

I can't wait to see what the transom looks like inside :D

Re: Stringer/Transom area question
 

John- I think you are referring to the battery boxes in your description.

http://www.casdvm.com/photos/SeaCraf...ttery%20boxes/

They are non structural and can be removed. Cant remember how my fuel tank came out but I think it was a tight fit also.

strick

Re: Stringer/Transom area question
 

Thanks for the reply,
Battery boxes in the bilge, hmmmmm... that's what they call those.

I will shoot a picture tomorrow, I am planning on leaving them out, they didn't do anything for years, if it hasn't broke in half by now, it probably won't. These actually weighed over 70 pounds each. One broke loose and k/oed my raw wash down pump. I am just glad it didn't knock off one of the sea cocks, and sink the boat.

Re: Stringer/Transom area question
 

Yea thats exactly what I thought when I discovered them thanks to Scott our senior member. He turned mo on the the fact that they looked rotten and should investigate. It is one of the few places you will find plywood in your Seacraft. I guess SeaCraft thought it was a good idea during those years to place the battery's in the bilge near the fuel tank

Strick

Re: Stringer/Transom area question
 

strick,
Thanks, more room for the fish box. I like my batteries "above" deck. I am looking at doing something like what Capt Chuck did on his with the in-floor box. With those out of the way, it should make for a good size box. The hard part will be fabricating a lipped/sealed opening with a drain. I am hopping I can find something premade/used.

Re: Stringer/Transom area question
 

I am getting ready to pull the gas tank. The plywood underneath gave way on one side, which now has the gas tank wedged in the foam. Anyone have a trick or 2 to extract it? At looks like the gas tank is wider than the opening. Do they tilt on the side? Also, when the gas tank decided to wedge, it looks like it separated the stringer on the port side from the bottom of the hull. I will be reinforcing both sides.

As for the transom, I am looking at a composite core. It looks like most of the boats redone on here used plywood. Has anyone recored a transom using composite? If so, what type and lamination schedule did you use. The only down side I can see to compostite, is putting screws in. They don't bite into the foam like they do wood. Anyone have experience with this?

Re: Stringer/Transom area question
 

I used coosa board for my transom. It was the blue water series and 1 1/2 inch thick. Good stuff - very easy to work with. I first reinforced the corners (hull sides and bottom) with two layers of 1708 tape. Then two layers of 1708 over the remaining transom skin. Then glued the new core to the reinforced skin. Following that I used a layer of 1708, 2408, and 1708 respectively. Finally I added a knee to the center stringer and tied the stringers back into the transom. Everything is solid now and new motor should be going on soon.

Re: Stringer/Transom area question
 

Would you post some pictures??

Re: Stringer/Transom area question
 

I was planning using that as well....it comes in a couple of grades (weights). It's more expensive than marine plywood and comes in various thickness from 1/4" to 1 1/2". Essentially its polyurethane foam impregnated with glass fiber....
http://www.coosacomposites.com/bluewater.html
and sample prices...

sample price list

Re: Stringer/Transom area question
 

I will be doing some research next week, and post what I find.

Re: Stringer/Transom area question
 

I used a transom pour on my sceptre,i cut out the inner skin peeled out all of the old wood ground the glass clean,
glassed the old skin back in and poured it solid.verry solid no voids and 100% water proof but hard on hole saws
and drill bits.

Re: Stringer/Transom area question
 

I'll get some pict's up soon. I tried yesterday when I posted but I could not find my seacraft album on the photobucket website. I'll upload some more pict's and get them up.

Re: Stringer/Transom area question
 

Picts of my transom redo. I haven't put any screws in it yet but when I do, I will overdrill then fill with thickened epoxy and then put the screw in the solid epoxy.
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k3...t/DSC00562.jpg
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k3...t/DSC00560.jpg
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k3...t/DSC00559.jpg
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k3...t/DSC00722.jpg

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k3...t/DSC00197.jpg
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k3...t/DSC00195.jpg
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k3...t/DSC01096.jpg

Re: Stringer/Transom area question
 

I used the Coosa board Bluewater 26 in 1 1/2" thickness.
It is easy to work with, light and 2 years later no problems.
I did 1708 over the old 1 layer of mat on the transom, then the Coosa, then 3 layers 1708, then three knees.

Re: Stringer/Transom area question
 

I have started "resurecting" my SeaCrafts sorry transom. The process got jump started by a couple week lag in work, and the fact the gas tank support collapsed on one side, wedging the gas tank against the side of the stringer, and loosening it from the hull.

I noticed when I would hit waves, the boat would pull to the left, a tad. Hull flex/load up on one side was the give away and some unusual "percussion". No stress cracks or anything else visible. The good news is these boats have an unbelievable amount of glass in them. The bad news, I think this boat was built on New Years Day. I have only seen one SeaCraft worse than this "under the covers", and it was a Potter, so you Potter guys don't get all puffed up. I have seen good and bad Potter, CSC, and Trackers. I have NEVER seen a bad Mosely era boat.

Anyways, I didn't plan to do this in the middle of the summer in Florida, but I figured the annual summer cold water would shut things down offshore, and I would just gypsy on other boats for a few weeks.

Here are a few pictures and questions

Here is the classic "before" makeover shot
http://www.deep-blue-sea.org/images/transom1.jpg

2 days of grinding/chainsaw/prypar/disassemly/etc
http://www.deep-blue-sea.org/images/transom2.jpg
http://www.deep-blue-sea.org/images/transom3.jpg

A few questions...
As I mentioned, I have to pull the tank and rebuild the platform under it. Capt Obvious pointed out that the tank is wider than the opening in the hatch, by over 1.5 inches.
Take a look at the pictures, and let me know what you thing.
http://www.deep-blue-sea.org/images/tank1.jpg
http://www.deep-blue-sea.org/images/tank2.jpg
http://www.deep-blue-sea.org/images/tank3.jpg
Someone looked at it and said I might be able to rotate the gas tank on its side and lift it out. hmmmmm.... Never had to do that before. I really don't want to take the top, cap, and liner out just to get at the gas tank. If any of you have any "helpful" suggestions, let me know.

I am ordering supplies tomorrow, and I am going with all composites. 1 1/4" coring. I am planning on putting the livewell in the transom, closing it up, putting an armstrong full size bracket on it, and putting a fish box in the floor where the live well currently resides. It will look a lot like Capt Chucks transom when all done.

Re: Stringer/Transom area question
 

You will have to cut the hatch reciever lip off to remove the tank. It is not possible to "rotate" it. ;)

Re: Stringer/Transom area question
 

They put the tank in before they put the liner in? what a plan :D. That will be a pita to re-engineer. Maybe I will just cut the transsom down and slide it out the back. I am probably going to replace the tank, and when I do, it will be a couple inches narrower.

Re: Stringer/Transom area question
 

Yes they put the tank in before the liner. Is not that hard to pull the tank I just did one. Cut the lip and pull the tank,replace the lip making it only 1" wide,and have the new tank made to fit inside the lip opening.The liner probably doesn't sit on the stringer so this is the time to glass it as well. :D

Re: Stringer/Transom area question
 

Your right about the liner/stringer relationship. That is something I plan to fix. Sometimes I wonder if the "SeaCraft" ride is partially due to the gap between the liner and the hull. A built in shock absorber. The problem is over time, it causes stress cracks all over the fish boxes and by the cabin.

You have any secrets on how to put the lip back in?

Re: Stringer/Transom area question
 

Take a straight 2x4 x whatever you need for length and apply masking tape to edge so glass wont stick. Set in place where you cut off the lip and glass up to it from the stringer. Be sure to grind the stringers first. When it cures trim to a width of 1" and you are good to go. :D

Re: Stringer/Transom area question
 

Thanks for the info. I was planning on tying the liner and stringers together. The liner has "sagged" down some, and has caused stress cracks in several places. I was thinking of putting some cross bracing in front and behind the tank running between the stringers. Have you ever seen/done that?

I spent a couple hours on the gas tank yesterday, and it is wedged in there pretty tight. The foam is compressed tight. I am going to put some long 2x4s underneath it, with threaded rod going through a cross brace and use the threaded rod to apply preasure. I think steady presure on it will release it out. Once I get it moving out, I will cut what I have to to remove it.

Re: Stringer/Transom area question
 

Good luck! :D

Re: Stringer/Transom area question
 

Just a suggestion.

Get a hand cross cut saw and cut the foam. You could do two cuts per tank side and then dig out the center section, thus giving yourself some working room. Make sure the tank is drained as much as possible, remove the sending unit, thus leaving a sizable opening into the tank. To be really safe, shoot a CO2 fire extinguisher into the opening forcing out an normal air with oxygen in it and fashion a piece of pipe with duct tape wrapped on the ends to prevent any metal to metal sparks. Attach the pipe to a "come along" or other lifting/ pulling setup and pull the tank clear slowly. This was described elsewhere on this site, so do a search. It loooked doable and reasonable to me if one were to think it through.

For the re-install, look up David Pascoe's article on how to install an aluminum fuel tank.

http://www.yachtsurvey.com/fueltank.htm

JMHO! Good luck!!!!! (and be careful- gas fumes are highly explosive!!!)

Re: Stringer/Transom area question
 

I can't resist - CHAINSAW?

Re: Stringer/Transom area question
 

I have a carbide tip chain saw we use for disaster relief. It cuts wood, fiberglass, and aluminium like butter. I think I will leave it on the shelf for this one.

I tried a new approach, and the tank is freee and pretty well out, got rained on, and needed a second set of hands to catch it this afternoon. I should have it out in the AM.
I used a 6' piece of 4x4, a 3' piec of 5/8"s threaded rod, and a 5' 2x4 and it took about 2 hours to get it out.

I drilled a hole in the end of the 2x4 and slide it under the tank lengthwise. I drilled another hole in the center of the 4x4, and placed on top of the stringers just past the end of the gas tank. I slide the threaded rod through the 4x4, and down through the 2x4 that was under the gas tank. Then I put a big washer and a nut on the bottom end, underneath the 2x4. I put another washer and nut on top of the threaded rod, on top of the 4x4. Put the wrench on it, and in about 15 minutes, I had it popped free, and started sliding it toward the back of the boat. The steady presure broke it loose from the foam. I currently have the rear of the tank resting against the transom, and I will have to grind a little off the tabs to get it out.

No comes the 900 dollar question, do I replace the gas tank? It wasn't leaking. I will clean it off tomorrow, and see how bad it is.

Re: Stringer/Transom area question
 

The SeaCraft soap opera continues.

The tank is out, and it looks like she is getting a new one.
http://www.deep-blue-sea.org/images/tank4.jpg
Would you say this was pitted?
http://www.deep-blue-sea.org/images/tank5.jpg
Now for some more fun. I suspected that a stringer was loose. I didn't suspect it was loose 1/2 the length of the boat. It seems that the port side is always the screwed up side on a seacraft. They didn't put enough glass to hold it and they didn't rough it up when they put it in there. It just pulled apart, with shiny glass underneath. The other side looks fine, and has more glass over there. I am probably going to re-enforce it. Good news is the stringers are dry and appear to be fine.
http://www.deep-blue-sea.org/images/stringer1.jpg

Here are some shots of the empty spaces.
http://www.deep-blue-sea.org/images/transom4.jpg
http://www.deep-blue-sea.org/images/transom5.jpg

One of these shows the "tool" in action. One guy, 4 hours, and the tank is out. No trying to get the foam out, it lifted straight out, even though it was twisted/shifted in there. Here is the tool I came up with.
http://www.deep-blue-sea.org/images/tool.jpg
Well, I am going to take 5 days off, and heal, regroup. That new tank is going to leave a dent in the wallet, but I don't want to do this twice.

Re: Stringer/Transom area question
 

Good move! ;)

Re: Stringer/Transom area question
 

John B or Will, I tooked the transom out. Now I', sanding the inner fiber glass of scepter 20'. I cut my marine wood using the back of the boat as a pattern.

Question?
. The wood has to be toching the side of the boat? Or how close should be?

Please any body call me @ 904-318-6084. Thank you

Re: Stringer/Transom area question
 

Tiburon,
Most of the original transoms I have seen are within 1/2 - 1 inch of the corners. On mine, I am probably going to put 2 layers or reenforcing glass in the corners, so I will probably come out about 2 inches from the corners, then put the coring material in, and come back with 3 layers of glass on top of the coring, and into the corners. With there being a bracket on my boat, and a plate/beam on the inside, the corners are going to load up, so I am going to hit them hard, and also put in knee braces to the floor, and kick braces to the side (if I can fit them in).

If anyone knows a better plan, let me know.

Re: Stringer/Transom area question
 

JohnB,
have you decided on your bracket, are you installing a single or a twin bracket fiberglass or aluminum.if
you are un decided i can email you some pictures of
the single and the double bracket that gause built sells
i have the twin bracket on mine and i will put the single
bracket on my 20 sceptre when i put it together for my daughter this winter

Re: Stringer/Transom area question
 

I am putting an Armstrong alluminum single bracket. It is the full size one that runs the whole width. Being a Sceptre, having the "big top", and having a single 472 pound motor, I wasn't looking for alot of floatation back there. The boat was already a tad nose heavy. Also, I found the bracket for 500 bucks, which is about 2200 less than a new one, and all it needed was fresh paint. I have probably removed at least 400 pounds of "dead" weight from the boat (wet transom, wet fuel tank platform, etc). Using composits, I hope the net to be 250 pounds lighter, unfortunatly, most of the weight loss is in the stern.

Re: Stringer/Transom area question
 

I am pretty much ready to start building. I ran into 2 things I am pondering,

1. The stringers are minimally attached to the hull on the inside. I suspect they may a little wet. I am going to hit it with a moisture meter this AM. I also have some concern that the glass isn't stuck to the stringers in some areas. There are areas near the floor I can push in with my thumb. Is this just because the stringers where square, and don't sit flush to the floor? or am I looking at something else. I am definitly going to beef up, and reattach the glass on the sides of the stringer back to the hull. The question is should I just cut the glass off the side of the stringer, and put new glass in on the side of the stringer where I can push it in, or just build up with glass over the existing? There are places on this string where it is attached that it is so thin, there are holes where the glass wasn't wetted out.

2. I have read so much on composites, glass, and epoxy, my head it going to explode. I am probably going to spend a little more money, and use Vinylester, vs poly or epoxy. The current option is going with 30 pound nylaboard which is 260 a sheet (OUCH), times 2 sheets, or go back to marine plywood. I have found that there are a lot of problems with separation between the glass and the composite board, especually if you don't have a vacuum system to pull it together. There are many production boats that are having these problems. My plan was to lay the composite coring down flat, and put a layer slow curing glass on top of it, and let it sit overnight. Then put a couple of layers of glass on the transom skin. Then put one layer between the transom skin, and the glass composite board. This would alow for max connection between the composite and the transom skin.

My question is this adds over 350 bucks to the project, and a plywood transom, especially one without a cutout will last 20-30 years. I don't know what the life of the hull is, but that would make the boat 40-50 years old. That is asking alot of of a hull. Really, the only major advantage is a little weight reduction, probably 100 pounds.

I know this has been tossed around quite a bit on here, but what does everyone think the weight difference would be? and has anyone had experience with Vinylester resin on a composite bonding/debonding?

Re: Stringer/Transom area question
 

On the stringers I would grind out questionable areas with the grinder and then re glass to beef en it up. Myself I don't think there is anything wrong with using plywood as long as you do it right. I've used both epoxy and vinyl ester over foam coring material without any problems. Don't worry about debonding your plan sounds OK but you will need to thru bolt the transom core with something on either side of the transom say 2x4's to suck the new transom coring to the outer skin. If you use plenty of resin you should have no debonding issues. One thing to keep in mind is that some of your transom coring materials are so dense that they are nearly as heavy as plywood so the weight difference would be negligible. I would do all your repairs in epoxy and for making parts use your vinylesters and polyesters. I used vinylester on the majority of my 20 restore because it was a little cheaper then epoxy and I wanted to see what working with it was like. The fumes are a real PIA but otherwise I'm happy with with it and it appears to be plenty strong.

strick

Re: Stringer/Transom area question
 

Thanks Strick,
I am leaning back toward marine plywood pretreated with epoxy, and puting it back together with vinylester resin.
If done poorly, like mine was, with unsealed holes for years, it almost made it 20 years. I don't know what the life of a hull is, but if it makes it to 40 with plywood, I won't complain. At 270 a 4x8 sheet, times 3 sheets, it really is piling up.

Re: Stringer/Transom area question
 

I would not vinyl ester over epoxy. You can epoxy over just about anything. :D

strick

Re: Stringer/Transom area question
 

I am using epoxy for everything except the cap, panels, and live well.

Here are some more pictures
I used 2 layers of biaxel tape to retie the stringers back down. It came out very well. I put a block of wood against it, and smacked it a couple of times with a 3 pound sledge, and it is all VERY solid/tight. That tape with epoxy is amazing.
http://www.deep-blue-sea.org/seacraft/string2.jpg
http://www.deep-blue-sea.org/seacraft/string3.jpg

Here is one of the things that drives me nuts with these boats. The sole to stringer connection, or in this case, disconnection. There is a 1/2-3/4" gap, and right above the stringer, and in addition, the sole is not level or straight. Like I said before, this thing must of been made on New Years Day, after a big party.
http://www.deep-blue-sea.org/seacraft/sole1.jpg
http://www.deep-blue-sea.org/seacraft/sole2.jpg

So far,
- I have repaired the stringers, and retied them to the hull.
- I have leveled, repaired and glassed in the sole to stringer connections on both side of the fuel tank.
- I have replaced the forward and rear bulkheads in front and behind the gas tank.
- I have put in the new gas tank platform, and have the transom cores cut and ready to put in.
- I have the donor panel made for the outer transom cutout fill in.

In case you haven't seen what a mold table looks like, her is a picture of what you can do with an old sliding door
http://www.deep-blue-sea.org/seacraft/table.jpg

Here is the before and after of the sole "floating" on top of the stringers, where it is now solidly attached.
Before - the sole just had glass putty stuck under between it and the tops of the stringers, it had come loose in several places, and wasn't level.
http://www.deep-blue-sea.org/seacraft/before.jpg
After - it now feels like you are standing on concrete.
http://www.deep-blue-sea.org/seacraft/after.jpg
Here is the fuel tank deck and bulkheads put in. Notice the 2 notches to let water in/out. I am going to put the gas tank on 1/4" neopreme strips, and attach it with mounting brackets to the stringer, no more foam to hold water.
http://www.deep-blue-sea.org/seacraft/tankdeck.jpg

and today, I just finished preping the bracket for powder coating, and tabing in the transom outer skin panel.

http://www.deep-blue-sea.org/seacraft/newtransom1.jpg

Re: Stringer/Transom area question
 

Well, the gas tank should be ready to be installed next week, picking it up Tues. I am getting the 1/8" tank, vs the 3/16th. The old one was 1/8", and was over 20 years old, and no leaks. The issue was more of weight than cost. The mounting platform, and installation will be much better than the original, so I would hope to get 20 or more years out of it. I am now knee deep in fairing freenzy to get it all leveled and cleaned up.

I built a mold to make the cap that would fit in front of the transom. The livewell will be mounted inside the cap. The cap came out real good, and fit within 1/4" everywhere. I took the old SeaCraft livewell hatch that was in the floor, and reused it. I wanted to keep the classic appearnce, and also, I'm cheap. Here are some pictures of the cap

http://www.deep-blue-sea.org/seacraft/cap1.jpg
http://www.deep-blue-sea.org/seacraft/cap2.jpg
http://www.deep-blue-sea.org/seacraft/cap3.jpg

I finished the mold for the livewell this afternoon, and have to do a little clean up on the corners, but it should make a nice livewell that will fit inside the cap. I left the boxes and lids in the back, so the geometry is 12" to 17" wide, 44" across, and 21" deep. It calculates at about 38 gal, but will probably action be about 34 when full. If anyone need a livewell that will fit inside a transom cap, let me know. I will keep the mold around for a little while. I plan on putting an adjustable height standpipe/drain in it, so I can adjust the water level height in it.

http://www.deep-blue-sea.org/seacraft/livewellmold.jpg

Re: Stringer/Transom area question
 

Nice work. What type size outboard powers your boat. I used Coosa on the transom mainly because I could get it in correct thickness. It was more expensive but is also providing great ways to build braces and supports. Funny, the port side stringers in my 23 are wetter than the staroard. The bottoms are wet indicating wet foam but structureally in good shape. I will post some pictures but I have found two cracks in the bow area in the lower cap right at the forward storage area. Looks like she was run pretty hard on a rough day. The moisture meter you recommended really detects wet areas and seems to be real accurate - sometimes scary.

Re: Stringer/Transom area question
 

I am currently running a tweaked 250 EFI Merc offshore, probalby about 310 hp. Lots of power, but 1.7-1.9 mpg is putting me in the poor house at 3 bucks a gallon. Long range plan is to put a Suzuki 4 stroke or Merc optimax 300 on her. Pick up a little speed and a lot of milage.

As for the coring, I drove my self nuts looking at all the options. The original core lasted through 20 years of abuse and poor installation from the factory, if this one goes 25, that will be fine with me. I went with Okumi marine plywood, and all the layup was done with epoxy, 4 layers of it. We have seen alot of transom failures in foam core boats (I won't name names). I think if they used epoxy instead of glass, they wouldn't have as many problems, just my opinion. I used dyvincell to recore my hatches, and the stuff has worked great.

For whatever reason, all the seacrafts I have seen that have one stringer bad, it's always on the port side, wierd. For you stringers, I would drill some 1/4" holes ever 12", right at the bottom of the stringer, and let it drain for a long time, maybe put some heat on it, I used hair dryers. Then plug the holes, knock some 1/2" holes in the top, and pour slightly thickend slow cure epoxy in to "reconnect" the cores to their outer skins, and then run some 45 degree bixal tape down the sides of the stringer to reinforce the stringer to hull connect, I used to layers of 9 oz/6" wide the whole length of the boat.

The cracks in that area are usually because the lower cap is now lose from the top of the stringers and is moving around. Most of them do that, especially when they have seen as much water as mine has.

Re: Stringer/Transom area question
 

Good idea on drilling the holes in the stringers. I have drilledone on each end and found water weeping out. I will now drill as you recommended and use the heaters. The hull and top cap are stored indoors and have not seen water now for three months. Plans are to keep both completely dry until I reinstall the top cap. This will give me time to continue drying the stringers. What surprised me is the floor is solid. The moisture meters reads damp in a few areas but is for the most part solid. The last 23 I had the boat cosmetically looked much better but I had two soft spots in the deck that I injected expoxy in and stiffened. I need to recore the hatches as they indicate very wet and are a tad heavy. Need to look into some composite coring for this project but I may wait until next year on the hatches.
I am looking at a 5 year old 250 Johnson for power. My friend has it on the back of a 76 23 Sceptre and wants to repower with a 300 Suz 4 stroke. Claims that is the engine for this boat. He purchased Potter built tackle cabinets after Potter left Seacraft. Very nice boxes. The tackle cabinets are old but in good condition. He has owned the boat since less was less than one year old and is a Seacraft fanatic. Actually has a very old 20 Seafari that still runs in original condition.