Inboard Experts
 

Seem to be a lot of issues involving inboards so thought I would start a thread and kick it off with a couple questions :)

Question #1
My 77 Savage has a counter-rotating engine in it. From what I understand this was common back in the day for single screw inboards, and actually made for a better handling boat. However over time in the interest of standardization and cost savings they were used less frequently. Now to purchase a counter rotating engine costs about $1000 more than a conventional one.

I want to replace mine with a conventional motor but the question is, did Seacraft build in an offset to these boats to account for torque? If so my replacement plan may not work. I tried measuring from the center of the prop shaft to either side of the hull and came up with about a 1/4 inch difference, but this may have been due to the fact there isn't really any good points to measure from on the hull.

Question #2
The motor I'm looking at is a Crusader Fresh Water Cooled. The cooling tanks are at the rear of the motor and don't quite fit under the console/back deck. Has anyone else ever run into this problem? Is it possible to remotely locate the heat exchange tank?

Thanks!

Re: Inboard Experts
 

First I am no expert but have had a few inboard boats. You can move your heat changer but Im not sure what the requirements/ placement choices are. If height of the new engine is an issue, be aware that newer, Vortek engines have a highrise intake and is 3 inches higher automatically plus how it is configured.

You may need a new trans w/ a reverse rotation motor, I dunno.

Re: Inboard Experts
 

Thanks Eagle, yes the engine is about 1.5 inches taller than the existing one but that won't be a problem as there is clearance under the console. I'm replacing the transmission also, forgot to mention that.

Re: Inboard Experts
 

no expert here either but Ill give it a shot-
if your curent motor is counter normal and you are running a 1.5-1 gear then you should be turning a right handed wheel. If I remember correctly these motors run a little more money than standard rotation. Most rudders will have some offset put into them to counter the torque that you have. (see picture of mine) If the crusader you are looking at is standard rotation then you will need to go to a left handed wheel. I would recommend the standard rotation personally speaking if you are getting a new tranny too. You can put the heat xchanger any where you like chevy blocks the best place is the rear and ford blocks the front of the motor is the best. By the best I mean the easiest area to put brackets to support the xchanger. My buds i/o has the vertical type that mounts down the front side of the motor- that is an option for you as well. As Gary Hill stated in another post , think about putting e4xtension blocks in between your risers and exhaust manifolds to protect against water intrusion when backing down.

you can see the offset to the port in these pictures of my rudder-



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...ithskeg002.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...ithskeg001.jpg


hope this helps- craig :)

Re: Inboard Experts
 

I belive most of the new counter rotation inboards are
standard rotation motors reversing the rotation with the
transmission.Does yours have a v-drive with your motor
faceing aft or forward?

Re: Inboard Experts
 

I think that's correct.....
if you're getting a trans anyway, I think you could get a normal rotation engine and reverse it in the trans to keep the same prop direction.

Re: Inboard Experts
 

I'll have to ask about that. Most of the engine places I've looked at have standard and counter at different prices though so there must be some difference.

Re: Inboard Experts
 

I guess you have to pay the piper for counter rotation someplace.....either on the engine or on the trans... :mad:

Re: Inboard Experts
 

Standard rotation engine is a left hand rotation! Always check rotation from the back(trany/bell housing end), and the distibutors on both right and left engines turn the same direction, so you have to check the crank shaft. Typically a velvet drive 2:1 gear changes the rotation of the output/prop shaft in the gear.

Re: Inboard Experts
 

As a few of the others have stated a left hand wheel is usually standard on a single screw boat. The 1.5-1 trans is usually standard on the SC's and that's a lefty. I have seen right handed screw's which are 1-1's but that's is not very common.
As for the off set in the rudder. I was always under the impression that the offset was there more for the ease of changing the shaft, cutlass bearing, and strut.

Re: Inboard Experts
 

I sent you a PM. Stay as the boat was originally set up...to match the prop, at the end of the day. the original prop is about the best you can do with a new 350. Ask Craig, he and I went thru this for a year and spent too much money to find this out! Good luck.

Re: Inboard Experts
 

Are you positive that it is a counter rotation motor? Reason I ask is because the literature doesnt specifically say but the nomenclature is the same for our inboard center consoles.


http://www.classicseacraft.com/Savage23.htm

you didnt say if your wheel was left or right handed??

general guide if you have a normal rotation motor is

1-1 gear- right handed wheel
1.5-1 left handed wheel
2-1 right handed wheel-

Re: Inboard Experts
 

Mechanic said it was counter rotating, I wouldn't have even known to check until I started seeing the different models on the web. It's a Velvet drive 1.5-1, so looks like that confirms it.

Some had said that most motors now are conventional and they turn them a different direction in the transmission. This is true for the newer Velvet Drive 5000 (which are much shorter) but not for the Velvet Drive 10-17 that fits with this shaft, the motor itself has to be designed to turn differently.

I was just about to say screw it and pull the trigger on a raw water cooled Barr for $5200 and a new Velvet Drive for $2200 and I could be in the water next week, however the PM from Jeff has me thinking... so Jeff, I'm PM'n you back :)

I just want to have it in the water to use for right now... all the fix up can come later as time permits.

Re: Inboard Experts
 

Just when I thought I has become an expert :D

My inboard Sceptre has a RH prop on a V-drive with a Chevy 350 Marinepower and I don't know if it is RH or LH. I know the bell housing is marked, so I'll check.

As far as reasons for an offset in the shaft/rudder setup, not sure either, but I always thought it was just to allow shaft removal.

Re: Inboard Experts
 

Hello,
I put in a new motor 2 years ago and went with marine power, it seemed lke the best set-up, with the heat exchanger in front of the motor, 350/315 HP and a 1.5-1 velvet drive.
The old motor was right hand turn trans and wheel (1.5-1 trans). I also went with a carb motor since I can fix it (I hope). I had 4" extension put in, the old motor had them and I looked at Craig's and his had them and a couple friends SEAVEE's also had them and glad I did. The owners manual indicated that water intrusion would void any help from them. I have a 17/16 prop and turn up 4600 RPM's, at 3100 RPM's I run about 26-27 MPH at 10.4 gallons per hour.
My brother has had several go fast boat with twin or triple motors and when he had a problem the compter woud try to compensate until he had a good problem.

Re: Inboard Experts
 

I have a 350 MPI left hand wheel on a 23 CC with a 1.5-1 transmission as well. The boat oringally had a 1.1 transmission that we swapped out because sail boats were passing us. The new one we put in was an older transmission that was originally right hand but we converted it over to configure it with the new engine. You could do this with the older ones I guess.

At 3200rpm I'm running 19-20knots on average at 10.5GPH and I'm spinning a 15/17 wheel. This seems a bit slower than knot working's boat. Any suggestions....?

Re: Inboard Experts
 

I'm hitting all the IB posts, slow in the office. Your prop is not sized correctly, the spec is 16 x 17 so I would guess thats the reason, also seems like your fuel consumption is a little high and may also be due to the prop. I am turning 16 x 16 4 blade at 1 and 1/2 tranny, 3200 is about 21 nph, depending on tide and wind, averaging about 8 gals per hour fuel injected, so you are close to typical numbers, the other post was in MPH so I think he was close also.I have played with the props and the original spec is the best, i kept my 4 blade after adjustments because I spent so much on it

Re: Inboard Experts
 

The engine need's to the recommended RPM's in all cases, if not it's like driving on the interstate in 3rd and you need to shift up. Craig's prop I used to get a idea where to go would only turn 4200 RPM's, like I said I'm running a 17 x 16 prop, which the prop shop did do some work on and I don't remember what that was.

Re: Inboard Experts
 

What is everyone else cruising at with thier 23 inboards?

I really hate to spend $500 on a new prop right now, but if everyone is 3-4 knots faster at cruise and getting better economy it seems like an expense well worth it.

Re: Inboard Experts
 

The original spec is 16 x 17, 3 blade, 5* degree cup LH on a 1.5 tranny. I tried a 17 and it too fat amd loud, the 15 spins in the hole.

Re: Inboard Experts
 

I don't profess to be an expert but an automotive engine turns counter-clockwise(left hand prop)You always look at a marine engine from the rear. on the 71 and 72 series borg warners the only box that reverses is the 1.9:1. They made a 2.1 to 1 and 1.9:1 to run pairs that used standard rotation engines. Most counter-rotating conversion change the timing chain for a timing gear. Cam turns same dir- crank rotates opposite direction. Some mercruisers used chains and everything ran counter. The starters are always different. Some people have tried to reverse the rotation in the borg warner but they won't hold up because the reverse clutch pack has fewer plates and discs. Physically it will do it but it will not last long. Most rudders are offset like a couple have noted to simplify shaft removal without dropping the rudder. I think Gary made the point that the most important thing about props is the engine has to be able to turn the rated rpm's at full throttle. Some rough rules of thumb are 1" diameter = 2" pitch. Reducing 1" pitch will pick up about 200-300 rpms. A cup will be about the same as 1/2" of pitch. There are really to many variables to try to compare what someone else is running. You can shift the weight in a planing hull and lose 300 rpm. Like I said these are rough guidelines. The best way is to run the boat with normal fuel load, gear etc and see where your at. You generally don't want to get to far off from square though. No expert-2nd generation boatyard rat.

Re: Inboard Experts
 

JEFF H,
What are your RPM's at wide open?

Re: Inboard Experts
 

well, prop playing again- i went with the factory specs this time- 16x 17 5° cup- pick it up tomorrow and will put her on this saunday probably (i hope). (king fishing saturday, how about you gary?)

Re: Inboard Experts
 

4800 and about 29 NPH, done leave her there too long!

Re: Inboard Experts
 

I got 24 knots at 3400 yesterday but my 4 barrel is knot working,(kicking in)lol. By myself with light fuel( 30 gallons). 13/14 gph. but what I liked though was the 21 knots at 2800 prms and 9.5 gph. this is the new 16/17 5°nibral i picked up off of ebay for 70 bucks :)- reconditioned for 120, and 40 for shipping= 230- sick

Re: Inboard Experts
 

Nice numbers for that wheel Craig, better than my 4 blade which I refuse to take off :)...I have to run about 3100 to get 21 knots, does seem like that you just cant beat the original spec for overall numbers. Did you get the nibral on a hunch or did you guesstimate it would improve performance?

Re: Inboard Experts
 

hey Jeff, still doing the 4 blade huh? mine finally sold on ebay and i recouped 20% of what i put into it,lol. Better than the yard ornamenty it had become,lol. Anyway, yea i decided to go the factory spec path and just stop playing with it. I was going to go bronze but when the nibral showed up I just figured that was an extra bonus. A little better hole shot maybe but I dont push the rpms up that much from the start for it to make much difference.

Re: Inboard Experts
 

Finster is right about the reason for the rudder offset, it's only to facilitate maintenance, although it does make a difference in rudder effort and torque steering, but not enough to worry about.

Re: Inboard Experts
 

Mine has an offset but the shaft isn't coming by it because the offset is at the rear of the rudder vrs the leading edge. Makes sense to me Fr Frank/ Finny, i just wish it worked on my boat without having to drop the whole rudder to pull the shaft. Its just not happening (on my boat anyway). Craig :)

Re: Inboard Experts
 

Miles, you officially have me on the market for the same prop. I checked ebay last week and couldn't find anything even close. Any suggesions on searching for our prop on ebay?

Re: Inboard Experts
 

Craig's right you cannot pull the shaft with the rudder in place,
I left the shaft in when I repowered a couple years ago, because I didn't want to add to the work I was doing at the time, but I did reglass the shaft log at the time.

Re: Inboard Experts
 

Riprunner- you just have to be vigilant and persitant in watching e-bay. One thing I figured out though is that with so many different sizes its kind of hard to sell one unless someone really needs that size/type of prop(unlike outboard props). I also hold off bidding on stuff until the last day (couple of hours) if no-one has bid on it then you can find some good deals. I also think there are quite a few "phantom" bidders out there as well, just trying to run the price up. I will keep and eye out for you too. craig- hey Gary, hows the retired life treating you? (sorry that I hijacked this thread)

Re: Inboard Experts
 

The counter rotation on most engines is accomplished by changing the firing order. On some the distributor still turns clockwise on others the gear is opposite, and the distributor turns counter clockwise. On GM's if the starter spins it backwards or left, and the firing order is changed the motor runs the other way. Chryslers are the trickiest many different configs with distributors so bad and confusing that you have to figure it out without Beer! Fords I'm not sure.
You can also make any warner velvet drive, the most comon transmission run the other way. Remember on most small boats the only job of a 1:1 tranny is to give you neutral and reverse.

Captain Chris

Re: Inboard Experts
 

Miles,

I'm going to make some calls and just buy a new 16x17. I noticed you had a cup put on yours, but I didn't see a cup in the factory specs. What made you go with a cup & why do you think that would be better than factory specifications. Sorry for all the questions but I only want to do this once. Thanks again.

Re: Inboard Experts
 

The only thing that matters is the RPM's is correct for your motor.

Re: Inboard Experts
 

Hey Rip- forget the cup, mine is still lacking some rpm's even though my 4 barrell is not opening up. I am going to get it taken out (cup) of mine when I haul it next time. :mad:

hows that retired life gary,lol !!! bet it sux huh??? - only 4 years 7 months 23 days 4 hrs for me but who's counting....

Re: Inboard Experts
 

Craig,
Retirement so far is great!
Your 4-barrel will only open when the RPM's are correct if you need my trailer let me know.

Re: Inboard Experts
 

Finally found a crowbar strong enough to peel open my wallet and bought a new 16x17 wheel. I'll report my before & after numbers next week when the prop comes in.