62-Racer Transom Help
 

Ok, I’m a rookie here and about to tackle a big job!
No where on CSC do I see pictures of how someone handles a wetted piece of 1708 that’s 8’ x 4’, without wearing half of it!!! There must be a trick to this, and would appreciate your sharing.

Our 21 is sitting on a 1”x6” on the floor, blocked, leveled, straightened and ready to begin. The transom skin has been grounded & 3’ off transom on hull & bottom. We’re using Coosa board, ¾ oz mat, 1708 & epoxy for the transom.

Just a reminder, our 21 has no transom core, no stringers, no floor, only a minimal cap that has fortunately kept her from spreading.

Here are some pictures, and would like to hear tips on how to put it all together. Thanks.
Blocked, plumb line off bow & transom boarded up
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j1...locking004.jpg http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j1...locking015.jpg http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j1...locking009.jpg http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j1...locking010.jpg http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j1...locking013.jpg
The last picture shows air pockets in the transom skin.

Re: 62-Racer Transom Help
 

I have done these a couple of different ways, and until I see or hear something different, this is how I did mine. I used epoxy, it has a lot longer working time, especially the slow stuff than glass.

Test fit the core, and level out any "dips" in the skin with thickened epoxy paste.

I would coat the coring material with the epoxy, lay it flat, and let it cure one day. With the plywood, I had to do this a couple of times, because it soaked up all the epoxy.

Then I would take and lightly scuff it, and wipe it clean.

Then I made an epoxy paste thicken with milled wood flour the consistancy of thin peanut butter, and trowled it on the skin, with a notched 3/8ths inch trowl. put the core against it, and clamp it in, but not too tightly, just so it starts oozing evenly out the sides.

I used 2 layer coring, so I repeated the process for the second core, but went with a thinner layer of epoxy between them.

Then I put 4 layers of 1708 on the inside, all with epoxy. If I was going to all the expense of using coosa, I would use epoxy. Unless your vacuum bagging the coosa, it is hard to get a real good bite with poly into coosa. Epoxy has a much stronger adheasion. If cost was the determinate, I would use good marine plywood, and poly glass. I don't think I would use poly with composite in a transom rebuild in the back yard. I am not saying it can't be done, and hasn't been done successfully, I just saying there is less room for error.

I did mine myself, I would suggest getting a second set of hands sticky.

Re: 62-Racer Transom Help
 

As John B said, you can leave the core out of the boat and glass the 1708 over the entire core outside of the boat. Once that has cured you can them install the core into the boat. I would use the paste, but only around the perimeter of where the core will sit, i.e. around the sides and bottom, bot fill the voids the best. However, insteado of spreading the past all around the inside of the transom skin, I would instead use wetted out 1.5oz matt, as I think it will give a stronger bond. Either way though you should be fine.

Once the core is in, you can further secure it (glass it in) by using 12 inch wide pieces running from the top of the top cap to the bottom, along all of the edges of the core. I would first apply the smallest pieces of 4 inch, and gradually work up to 12 inches....4,6,8,12.

This hard to put in words lol, but I hope you get the idea.

Re: 62-Racer Transom Help
 

If your using poly, I agree with GradySailfish, if your using epoxy, it would probably work ok, I am just am repeating what I heard from guys that know epoxy, and my own experience.
As far a the big epoxy vs poly, when it comes to transom, generally, people are hanging heavier and more powerful engines, on brackets, off the back of these boats. IMHO, you need to beef up the design and/or materials to compensate for this.

Re: 62-Racer Transom Help
 

Are you restoring to a full transome or notched for outboard. This will obviously affect the process of your transom repair.BTW looks like someone has been super busy grinding glass, looks great! Nice Job on the blocking.

Re: 62-Racer Transom Help
 

Our transom will be raised 5" for 25" shaft twins.
Using epoxy (better strength & adhesion to old fiberglass)

Ok, so use some thickened epoxy to fill air holes, then apply wetted 1.5 oz (not 3/4oz) mat to transom skin.

Then it's been recommended to add 2 layers of 1708 to transom skin to beef her up, bringing each layer 3" past previous layer. Can this be added soon after the mat, or will there not be enough time before mat sets? I've read/heard the chemical bond is the best.
And again, how to handle these big sheets? Just put sticky hands on all corners? or do you try to roll up then unroll on the transom? Amazing how much & how little I know!
Please keep the helpful hints coming ... Thanks.

Re: 62-Racer Transom Help
 

Too bad your not closer... will laminate for food and bait money :D
As for "wetting" out, I cut the piece to size, and used binder clips at the top to hold it in place, and folded the 1708 over the top. Than wetted down about 16" of inner skin with some slightly thickened epoxy to keep it from being runny. Folded the glass down over it, and then wetted it in from the inside. I did this 3 times, then, had to filet all the edges.

Hot laminating, one on top of the other is the way to go with epoxy, as soon as I got the first layer in, I was laying the next one on top of it. Doing it this way, the layer underneath is more or less wet, and it goes alot easier, but by the time I got done with 4 layers, it about killed me.

Maybe you could do it at once, but like I said, I did mine alone, so that was the only option.
As for wetting it out, I have used epoxy foam rollers, and plastic "blades". I would put the roller on a 45 angle, and pour a stream of epoxy on the roller as I went.
I liked the plastic blades in the corners, etc.
It is really hard to describe.

Tip, don't use the mixing plungers to measure in these amounts, use measuring cups.
Tip, get a couple boxes of gloves from harbor freight.
Tip, less is more. If you see something that is a little ugly, don't try to fix it, you will make it worse.
Tip, cut ALL the 1708 first, and start with the smaller pieces, overlaping 2-3" outward on each layer.
Tip, make sure your inner skin is clean and LEVEL. Mine was a mess from the factory.
Tip, if you have shoulder length hair, wear a hair net or plan on ripping it out, or getting it cut afterward :o
Tip, don't do this like I did during lovebug season.

Actually if you have any questions, pm me, I am not an expert, but have been down that road.

Here is what it looks like when it's done
http://www.deep-blue-sea.org/seacraft/transom7.jpg
Pulled the

Re: 62-Racer Transom Help
 

Invest in some full disposable body suits, hair nets and latex gloves. I can't tell you how many pairs of shorts/shirts I ruined and how many times I had to cut epoxy out of my hair after touching it.

Slower curing epoxy can help with the time issue but don't combine slow cure epoxy with cold weather.

Re: 62-Racer Transom Help
 

At about 40-45 degrees, epoxy will NOT kick, no matter what type you use or how you mix it. In Florida this isn't usually a problem. The sun does seem to kick it a little, I usually try to work in the shade.
In the summer, I put my epoxy jugs in ice water, and this keeps the pot life a lot longer, in the winter, I sometimes bring them in the house.

Re: 62-Racer Transom Help
 

How about some nice thick steaks on the grill and ice cold beer in the cooler ... will that temp you to join in? :cool:
Really nice "clean" job you did on your transom.

We're working in an airport hanger with S. Fla temps in the 70's.
Briguy, Good idea on the disposable suits ... and pleny of gloves.
JohnB, lots of great tips here. I like the idea of hanging the glass on the transom & wetting as you work down. Hadn't thought about the ice bucket to keep the epoxy cool, another good idea.

The medium drying epoxy (3-1 ratio) is good up to 80 degree temp, takes about 2 hrs to become tacky & ready for the next layer (per US Composites, fortunately close by). If that be the case, then can I use the same roller for all 3 layers on the same day, (one mat, 2-1708) or should I have separate rollers for each layer?
So many helpful hints here, I really appreciate it. Thanks!

Re: 62-Racer Transom Help
 

You will need several roller covers, probably a dozen and probably 2 rollers, unless you step on and break both of them, then you would need 3 :D and maybe 1/2 dozen of the green 6" plastic spreaders.

I used the MarineEpoxy from beateau for a variety of reasons, but one was it has no amine blush, like west system does. With west and others you should wait for each layer to harden, than clean the blush, then lay the next layer. You probably shouldn't hot coat, but check with the manufactures tech support, not me :o
Not all epoxies blush but I know for fact/experience west does/can, and MOS and the the MarineEpoxy from beateau hasn't when I used it. You might want to check that out. Those are the only ones I have used.

Also, some of the mat has a very thin styrine coating on it which makes it a pita to wet out with epoxy, but helps with polyglass. It doesn't hurt anything to use, but believe me, you can tell the difference if you have used both.

I know I sound like I am working for Beateau, but their products are specifically geared for epoxy, and they know what their talking about.

Re: 62-Racer Transom Help
 

Go to Walgreens and buy 3 boxes latex gloves for $10. Buy your suits by the box if you can find them. Ones without hood are best. Cut strips where your pockets are if you are someone that tends to put stuff in pants pockets. Vinegar if using epoxy to clean up, isopropyl alcohol if you can get your hands on a couple gallons also helps. I am going on 12 gallons of epoxy - transom, all hatches, all bulkheads and most of the bow in a Sceptre. Latex gloves are cheap but go fast when working with the resins. Also different sizes of plastic pails to mix the epoxy in.

Re: 62-Racer Transom Help
 

Carla - now I know why you wanted me to come over Saturday. Nice try!

Re: 62-Racer Transom Help
 

Good advice so far. I would epoxy one layer of biaxial on the old skin first and then with your core already pre made and ready next cabosil that to the still hot biaxial/cabosil on the old skin. Clamp that sucker in place so the cabosil gets squeezed out around the edges of core. I like 2x4's thru bolted into the transom then fillet all the voids around the core were it comes in contact with the hull. Let this all set up and then remove the clamps and start laying up the inside. I would use use biaxial and make the inner glass approx 1/4-3/8 inch thick. As far as how to work with large pieces of glass I usually cut it so it will drape over the transom and kinda hold itself up. Anyway you go about it it's still gonna be messy. I like to use OB sleeve (fingerless) with 2 latex gloves over my hands as that will keep the epoxy off your arms.

http://www.casdvm.com/photos/Working.JPG


strick

Re: 62-Racer Transom Help
 

Be careful when you clamp/tie stuff down, that if epoxy gets on any of the clamps or through-bolts, you will learn exactly how strong epoxy is. This time, I put contact paper on the outer skin (had some laying around), and it was nice to not have to worry about spills/etc. I just peeled it of, and everything came off fine. Expoxy will soak through some of the masking tape that is out there, and you have to grind it back off.

Re: 62-Racer Transom Help
 

This thread has been incredible!
I still need to check to make sure the mat does not have styrine.
Otto - won't be ready for the job this weekend, so you're safe ... but hopefully by next weekend we'll have all the material & be ready.
Vinegar is a good idea ... Costco sells by the gallon.
Disposable suits is also good & cheap. Already picked up 100 latex/powdered gloves
And I have plenty of contact paper ... I like the idea of easy cleanup.
Strict - OB sleeve? I like the idea ... can I use the plastic bags newspapers come in? How did you protect the thru-bolts from getting resin on them & sticking?

We've heard of the technique of making huge clothespin type clamps & using about 6 to slide over the transom to push it all together. Using 3/4 ply approx 12" wide & long enough to reach the transom bottom & then notching out the expected thickness of Coosa & fiberglass layers. If it doesn't work, want to be prepared for the thru-bolt method.

Our total planned layer of construction is: on skin, 1.5 oz mat, 2 layers 1708, 1.5oz mat on Coosa, Coosa Board (clamp & let all set up), then 1.5 oz mat on inside Coosa, 4 layers of 1708. Let set up.
Hopefully that's enough to beef up for twin engines. (basic layer construction recommended by Hermco)
But he didn't provide a video of the "how to"... so all your tips have been tremedous and I really appreciate your taking the time to post & share. Thank you.

Re: 62-Racer Transom Help
 

I would find someone with expertise in clamping the coosa, and do what they did. I came close to using coosa, but went with plywood on the last one. I think that stuff has more flex to it when you clamp then plywood. Also, I don't think it has the compression strength that plywood does. I got away with clamps on the top, boards through the bracket holes, and then a bizaare seriese of bolts and boards through the drain plug. I don't know, but my guess is you will need a little more clamping contact area with the coosa.

Re: 62-Racer Transom Help
 

I used a layer of 1708 then Coosa. Then two layers of 1708 and then extra tabs of 1708 in all corners. A layer of woven roven will be applied over all this. Plus I added some additional knees in the bottom made out of the Coosa material.
When I removed the old plywood transom. There was only a layer of woven roven, the plywood glassed directly to the skin.

Re: 62-Racer Transom Help
 

Sorry Carla OB is short for Obstetrics. I can send you some if you PM me with your mailing address. It would be easier then trying to use plastic bags. The bolts should pound out with a hammer and punch. You can coat them with wax if you want but I have never had a problem removing the bolts. The more I see that 21 hull the more I like it. :cool:

strick

Re: 62-Racer Transom Help
 

I've sent of an inquiry on clamping Coosa & hopefully will get a reply.
Stick - I thought those sleeves might have something to do with your "paying" profession. The disposable suites have sleeves, so I should be fine...thank you for offering.

Standing next to the 21, she is impressive & the sheer lines awesome ... you should have one! :)

Re: 62-Racer Transom Done!
 

The transom is DONE ... yea!
I've learned so much on this forum, and understand why "others" say ClassicSeaCraft forum is the BEST!
Thanks so much for all the tips ...
Thanks to Dan of FIBERGLASS1, here in North Palm,Fla and a Special thanks to Denny (Bushwacker) for ALL his help !!!
Now for pictures ...
Dan came & joined us on the first day of laying 1708 to show us all the how-tos and how-NOT-tos...
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j1...othCutting.jpg

First 2 layers of 1708 glassed on the transom ... then added another 2 layers.
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j1...om-01c-FG2.jpg

Coosa Board dry-fitted to transom ... holes drilled in Coosa to allow air escape & cabosil to ooze out.
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j1...b-CoosaFit.jpg

Our clamping system ... actually worked well! Fitted over transom, then shimmed tight. Skip & Denny cleaning up extra Cabosil mixed with glass bubbles, making nice radius.
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j1...CoosaClamp.jpg

After clamps removed
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j1...saFinished.jpg

Transom shot, showing the raised transom (5" for twins) vs original height.
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j1...saFinished.jpg

Denny & Skip busy laying another 4 layers of 1708, one at a time. I was in charge of all the mixing and keeping them supplied with their different mixtures.
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j1...om-05b-FG4.jpg

All done ... end of day & tired.
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j1...om-05c-FG4.jpg

Just one more of the transom ... "a good plan is when it all comes together nicely"
The middle dip needs a little work... but made it such that a 30" shaft single engine can fit there if so desired.
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j1...om-05f-FG4.jpg

I've been playing ... making circles out of strips of 1708, with thickness from 1-4 layers ... good test for how many layers vs how stiff.
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j1...Transom012.jpg

Next ... stringers.

Re: 62-Racer Transom Done!
 

Looks like a great job! Solid as a tank. I like how you are planning ahead with the possibility of a single 30 inch or twins. :D

Question: what is the transom height in the middle (for the 30 inch motor) if you were measuring from the outside of the boat from the keel up to the top of the transom.

strick

Re: 62-Racer Transom Done!
 

Nice job. When I get that far I know who to call. :)

Re: 62-Racer Transom Done!
 

The "Transom Busters" :D

Lookin' good guys, you are already pros now......

See ya soon, Ken

Re: 62-Racer Transom Done!
 

Measurement from keel to transom top in center is 30" by plumb line, and 25" in middle of step to transom top for twin mounts. The transom is angled, so could not use measurement directly on transom line, but I can measure that if you'd like.

The 1.5" CoosaBoard weighs about 1/2 of what 2-3/4 plywood & it should last a lot longer...even though this boat is already 45 years old!

Re: 62-Racer Transom Done!
 

:cool: NICE! Transom looks great. Looks like you have a lot of qualified help down there. So what is the plan for the stringers? Box fiberglass filled with foam?

Re: 62-Racer Transom Done!
 

Carla & Skip-
You make it look so easy! I appreciate the details with photos. That transom ain't goin no where! I hope to see it in person soon.......... ;)

Re: 62-Racer Transom Done!
 

Perfect timing, Carla, I'll be down next week. I don't have to work on stringers do I?

Re: 62-Racer Transom Done!
 

No Otto, just alot of grinding fiberglass to get ready for those stringers :eek: :cool: :D

See ya, Ken

Re: 62-Racer Transom Done!
 

" So what is the plan for the stringers? Box fiberglass filled with foam? "

That's a good question. Need to sit in the boat & THINK... sole height, run string lines & measure height needed for stringers & grid system. When I know more, I'll start a new thread to toss around some ideas. "Great minds working together produces a better product"

Danny, Otto, and anyone, is welcomed to come & see...no work required :)

Re: 62-Racer Transom Help
 

Skip and Carla kindly invited me up to area 51 to see the top secret offshore racer. I was supposed to bring my little friend up for show and tell. Alas, I am sore and tired and
STILL not together.Helpful elves had to work.

Lets get to the meaty part shall we.....

What a beautiful beast. Think Pinninfarina on steroids with a little P- 40 thrown in for the intimidation factor. I`m an old bump skier and when I say steep n deep I`m seriously pumped. What a wonderful canvas for the artist`s eye. I cant stop thinking about it.

Hmmm, The possibilities. I quickly and greedily put together the bait boat from hell in my mind. 2 in deck livewells @ 100 per? Floodable hold? Massive oval scuppers? Fishbox in the transom cap with a 1/2 fold cover draining to the scuppers? Hardtop with canvas, teaser reels and a trip with a shotgun rigger top gun style? Heck,there`s even enough room for a chair or a rocket launcher/ riggin station. Pod helm a`la Rybo/ Merritt to follow the shear line? You could play put put golf in that cockpit. Did I mention the freeboard? I`m too short to see anything but the sky standing on the keel.

Hang on, not so fast Mr. Grinch! This boat will not be in your driveway any time soon. You just met these people who , BTW, invited you here. This is going down in history. Many heads, many thoughts, many possibilities. This boat will do that to you. :D

Thanks Skip n Carla
When I`m back together, I`ll be honored to serve an apprenticeship as time allows.

GFS

Re: 62-Racer Transom Help
 

I love the clamping method....just wedges after the "clamps" were inserted......and look slike with weep holes in between.

Re: 62-Racer Transom Help
 

Yup! Did it to me! My thoughts exactly!

Re: 62-Racer Transom Help
 

With a blank canvas to work with, it's easy to get carried away, but need to stay with reality & our abilities.

The weep holes in the Coosa Board were recommendations by Dan at Fiberglass1, and then talking with the Coosa Board tech people, they confirmed. It's a great way to make sure you get all the airpockets out for a good solid bond.

The clamping method and then shimming tight worked very well, to squeeze it tight enough to see the cabosil ooze out, without over-tightening as you don't want to squeeze out too much and loose your good bond.

Been out of town lately, & hopefully will get back to working on her today.