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-   -   Outboard Brackets, Pro's & Con's (http://www.classicseacraft.com/community/showthread.php?t=19779)

Bushwacker 11-19-2008 12:21 AM

Outboard Brackets, Pro's & Con's
 
This question comes up often enough that I thought I’d start a new thread, as I had the same questions many of you are probably having. If you’re wondering, after having gone thru this learning experience, would I do it again, the answer is ABSOLUTELY! However, here are a few things you need to think about before you dive into what will no doubt be a more expensive project than just a transom rebuild! Don Herman, PaulB, Snookerd, Briguy, and Captains Chuck & Lloyd, feel free to chime in on anything I’ve missed or otherwise screwed up! (These comments apply to the 20' hull; for a 23, the pro's are the same, but the con's are probably less severe, as the bigger boat should be a little less weight sensitive, although I'd still be careful about running real heavy twins.)

PRO’S
1. The biggest advantage of the closed transom/bracket set up is the safety aspect of keeping water out of the boat from a big breaking following sea. Unless you’ve been in that situation, it’s probably hard to put a value on it, but it’s a very big deal to me!
2. It's really nice for diving and it provides more room in the boat since you can eliminate the splashwell. You've essentially increased boat length by whatever the bracket setback dimension is.
3. It also keeps noise and smoke out of the boat, if you’re still running an old carbureted 2-stroke.
4. Improved Performance. Most before & after tests have shown that a bracket adds 2-3 mph in top speed because motor is running in cleaner water, allowing you raise the motor relative to bottom of boat. A similar increase may occur in optimum cruise speed.
5. Improved on-plane trim capability. Maybe it’s just the 25” shaft motor, but an aft shift of the motor increases the lever arm for both weight and thrust loads! Power trim definitely has more effect on running angle than I had with a 20” motor mounted on the transom.

CON’S
1. Downsides are it changes the boat balance because you've shifted the weight of the motor aft, which moves the boat CG aft, and tends to hurt ride and increase min planing speed. On the 20' hull, the Seafari is less stern heavy than the cc models, so it's a better candidate for a bracket IMHO.
2. Low speed maneuverability will be slightly affected, because you've also shifted the boat's pivot point aft. In my own case, I found that the new Seastar hydraulic steering system had a shorter stroke than my old Hyanautic/home-made rig, so it doesn’t turn the motor all the way to the stops, which exaggerated the maneuverability problem. As near as I can tell, all the factory made hydraulic systems have the same stroke, and I haven’t figured out a fix to that yet.
3. You'll have to move the axle on your trailer back a couple feet to keep enough weight on the tongue.
4. All brackets I know of are made for a 25" shaft motor, which might be an issue if you're not repowering or having a bracket custom made. The higher that powerhead is from the water, the better!

A few key things you need to pay attention to if you add a bracket:

1. Motor weight! Because of the CG issue, lighter is better! I would not consider the 450-500 lb 150 4S Yamaha, Honda & 150/175 Zuke, and the big block V-6 200+ hp 2 strokes because they're so heavy. That leaves the 140 & smaller Zukes, the Merc Optimax, the small block V-4 & V-6 E-Tecs among the new motors, and the earlier small block V-6 2 strokes. If you run offshore a lot, LESS (power & weight) is MORE. The light 20' hull will start to go airborne at about 20 kts in seas over about 3', so you don't need a big motor for that type of operation. I considered the 375 lb V-4 E-Tec rated at 115 hp (really about 120-125) but they weren't in production yet when I bought mine. I’m obviously not a speed demon, but the 150 (really 165) E-Tec at 429 lbs is overkill on power (will run almost 50 mph in flat water) and is the heaviest motor I'd consider. That said, it IS nice to be able to cruise at 4000 rpm/30-35 mph AND carry on a normal conversation! (It’s quieter than the 4-strokes at that speed.) It’s also nice to be able to outrun a thunderstorm if you screw up and get surprised by one!

2. Look for a bracket with the biggest flotation tank you can find, either a Hermco or an Armstrong designed for twins (but use a single on it). Reason is to maintain some self-bailing capability. My rig is still self-bailing, but just barely; I leave the scupper plugs in and depend on the bilge pump if I leave it in the water overnight.

3. Try to run the smallest setback you can with the motor you’re using. I could get away with 18”, so 30” on the Hermco is overkill, although nice for diving! (Don – how hard would it be to offer your bracket with various setback dimensions?) Making a custom bracket like Strick & Big Shrimpin did is a good idea if you have those kind of skills!

4. You will probably want to run trim tabs, a 4-blade stern lifting prop and maybe a Doelfin or equivalent to maintain good low speed (12-13 mph) planing capability for rough water operation. The flotation tank doesn’t help when you’re on plane, so all this stuff helps compensate for the weight shift.

5. If you already have hydraulic steering, all you need is new hoses, throttle and shift cables that are about 6' longer, at least if you rig them like Don Herman recommends, where everything runs down into the bracket and then thru the transom inside the flotation tank to keep a nice clean transom. If you have cable steering, you'll want to switch to hydraulic steering, which I'd recommend even if you don't go with a bracket.

These are just some thoughts based on my own experience. A lot of folks are probably trying to make this decision, so you other guys with brackets, feel free to chime in! Denny

Snookerd 11-19-2008 12:27 AM

Re: Outboard Brackets, Pro's & Con's
 
Well done Denny! The biggest floatation area, ie - Hermco Type will yield the best results.

Bigshrimpin 11-19-2008 12:47 AM

Re: Outboard Brackets, Pro's & Con's
 
Great summary!! That covers everything.

Just want to mention that the low speed maneuverability is a big issue for me. Raising the motor 2 holes helped some with the reverse maneuverability issue(not sure why). The swim platform also makes a great tool bench.

http://www.wellcraftv20.com/gallery/...2/DSCN6619.jpg

24" would have been the shortest set back for me to get full tilt with the motor.

ROBCAR 11-19-2008 01:01 AM

Re: Outboard Brackets, Pro's & Con's
 
Great info Denny! This get me closer to what I need to know before making a decision on my 20ft MA. Since I am redoing my transom, this is the time to make a drastic change....bracket, no-bracket and just raise the transom to 25", but would have to replace the o/b anyway (currently a 200hp Mercury with 20" shaft)., trims and hydraulic steering.....it may have been cheaper to buy a brand new 2008 SeaCraft ... javascript:void(0)


:D :D :D

McGillicuddy 11-19-2008 01:28 AM

Re: Outboard Brackets, Pro's & Con's
 
Hey Big, Curious,can Merc shafts be extended on I-6 and 2.0L models? Can 20" shafts go to 25"?

Bigshrimpin 11-19-2008 01:40 AM

Re: Outboard Brackets, Pro's & Con's
 
I'm pretty sure bayMFG makes a kit for the inline 6's.

The 2.0L v6's use the same baymfg kit as the 2.4L and 2.5L. Also for the 2.0L v6 you can also find the 5" spacer, 25" shift shaft, cut your own 1/2" copper tube, and swap in a 25" lower with the long studs(just make sure it's 2:1 ratio lower).

strick 11-19-2008 05:53 AM

Re: Outboard Brackets, Pro's & Con's
 
Everything Denny said is right on. In summary if you go with a bracket on a 20 cc make sure you:

1. Get as light weight a motor you can.
2. Get a bracket with as large a flotation chamber as you can
3. Keep the weight as centered in the boat as you can (fuel tank, batteries etc...)
4. Go with the minimum set back that will allow the motor to tilt up.
5, Get trim tabs (however I hardly ever have use mine)

If you go about it right then you wont be disappointed in the way the boat handles. Just ask Bigshrimpin how nice the boat in the pic below handles. And backing up is not all that bad.

LIFE IS GOOD :cool:


http://www.casdvm.com/photos/running...s/sideshot.JPG

strick

hermco 11-19-2008 09:28 AM

Re: Outboard Brackets, Pro's & Con's
 
Quote:

(Don – how hard would it be to offer your bracket with various setback dimensions?)

The standard setback is 30" to allow for full engine tilt with most motors. I can make a bracket with setbacks of 24",30", and 36". A single engine on a twin bracket will provide the most floatation but would need to have a 30" shaft length.

Bushwacker 11-19-2008 01:49 PM

Re: Outboard Brackets, Pro's & Con's
 
Great looking rig Strick! Have to admit that motor (130 Yamaha 2-stroke?) looks to be just about the perfect weight and power match for the 20' hull! Denny

CaptLloyd 11-19-2008 07:49 PM

Re: Outboard Brackets, Pro's & Con's
 
Great summary Denny!

It's great to see all the issues presented at one time, instead of broken up into several different threads. Thanks for putting it all together!! BTW, I'm with you, if starting over again, I would definitely go with a bracket! The 23' WA will eventually get a bracket. :cool:

I would add one thing, make sure the bracket matches the transom angle, otherwise, the platform will not be level.

And to reiterate, watch motor weight. My 427 lbs Suzuki 140 4 stroke is has heavy as you want to go on a bracketed 20'cc.

Lloyd

Snookerd 11-19-2008 08:46 PM

Re: Outboard Brackets, Pro's & Con's
 
Strick-That is an amazing boat. You really nailed down all the requirements with the addition of your well made floatation bracket for top notch performance.

clb33fyxj 11-19-2008 08:54 PM

Re: Outboard Brackets, Pro's & Con's
 
out of curiosity, has anyone ever put a bracket on the 18?

thehermit 11-19-2008 09:15 PM

Re: Outboard Brackets, Pro's & Con's
 
Don has ;)

ROBCAR 11-19-2008 11:36 PM

Re: Outboard Brackets, Pro's & Con's
 
love your boat Strick!...What happened to the mold for the bracket you built?

Bigshrimpin 11-20-2008 12:08 AM

Re: Outboard Brackets, Pro's & Con's
 
The mold is made with MDF and cracked open once the part is laid up.

http://www.wellcraftv20.com/gallery/...7/DSCN5891.jpg
http://www.wellcraftv20.com/gallery/...7/P1010003.jpg

Bigshrimpin 11-20-2008 12:21 AM

Re: Outboard Brackets, Pro's & Con's
 
Strick's boat sure does ride nice!! It's more maneuverable than mine and better balanced. I think moving the tank forward with the batteries, console, seat, 30 gallon baitwell, made a big diference. His boat jumps on a plane and hits 42mph with 2 people and gear.

ROBCAR 11-20-2008 12:23 AM

Re: Outboard Brackets, Pro's & Con's
 
thanks for the clarification Big....too bad he couldn't save that mold

Bushwacker 11-20-2008 01:06 AM

Re: Outboard Brackets, Pro's & Con's
 
I think Keyscruz put one on an 18, with a 150 E-Tec! :eek: I told him to make sure he was attached to the kill switch lanyard before he nailed the throttle on that thing!

clb33fyxj 11-20-2008 01:13 AM

Re: Outboard Brackets, Pro's & Con's
 
haha, i bet. thanks for the replies. goin to look at my (potentially) first seacraft tomorrow which is a potter 18. grew up fishing on a 23' mako and 23 seacraft tho.
Chris

Bigshrimpin 11-20-2008 01:20 AM

Re: Outboard Brackets, Pro's & Con's
 
He did the bracket just right on that yellow boat! I like to think the reverse chine gives it a little extra bite around the corners and a little extra lift on the take off. Could be my imagination . . . but it's a beautiful riding 20.

Bigshrimpin 11-20-2008 01:23 AM

Re: Outboard Brackets, Pro's & Con's
 
Quote:

thanks for the clarification Big....too bad he couldn't save that mold

You can always make one (the dimensions are posted here and step by step instructions with nice digital pics) or buy one from hermco!! When you figure the amount of labor involved . . . hermco's is cheap!!

ROBCAR 11-20-2008 09:54 AM

Re: Outboard Brackets, Pro's & Con's
 
Quote:

You can always make one (the dimensions are posted here and step by step instructions with nice digital pics) or buy one from hermco!! When you figure the amount of labor involved . . . hermco's is cheap!!

hahahaha...that's so true. And Hemco makes some really nice brackets, which I am still considering for my 20 MA

strick 11-20-2008 05:40 PM

Re: Outboard Brackets, Pro's & Con's
 
I forgot to mention that the photo is courtesy of Bigshrimpin photography LLC :)

My Yamaha 130 came with a dole fin attached that I never took off and I think that helps a great deal in the way the boat handles and rides. If you can find a used Yamaha 130 I would reccommend it as they are great running motors.....knock on wood!

Strick

Bushwacker 11-21-2008 01:34 AM

Re: Outboard Brackets, Pro's & Con's
 
I added a Doelfin to mine after I had run it for a few weeks and I believe it provided some stern lift that helped reduce min planing speed. I also had one on old motor before repower; they may cost a couple of mph in top end, but I think they help getting on plane and staying there at low speed.

zach 11-23-2008 12:03 AM

Re: Outboard Brackets, Pro's & Con's
 
Great post. This site helped me with my decision to add a bracket to my 20. Thanks for everyones help. I'm having the little boat redone by a professional down in Stuart. We decided to enclose the transom and add an Armstrong flotation bracket. I chose an Opti 175 Pro XS for power due to its strong power/weight. Should be a quick, efficient little set-up.

Enclosing the transom allowed me to add a livewell and more storage. We have two hatches, one to port and one to starbord, and an approximately 17 gallon livewell in the center. Here are a couple pics:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3160/...63ae12c650.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3069/...367d4900c7.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3187/...2342948bcf.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3276/...f7666e29ca.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3036/...a9d9d20da3.jpg

CaptLloyd 11-23-2008 12:19 AM

Re: Outboard Brackets, Pro's & Con's
 
Zach,

You have been holding out...

WE WANT MORE BOAT PORN!!!!

BTW, from what we see, the boat looks great :cool:

Lloyd

thehermit 11-24-2008 09:48 PM

Re: Outboard Brackets, Pro's & Con's
 
A while back, Mr. Potter threw his $.02 in on brackets for SeaCrafts:

Why brackets for SeaCrafts (or most other open transom outboard boats!)?!! 1.SAFETY - The biggest cause of offshore accidents is capsizing due to destabilizing water in the cockpit which in almost all cases came in over a low cut transom. That is why we put full depth motor wells in SeaCrafts. A bracket alone helps this, but not as much as having a full height transom with the bracket 2. PERFORMANCE - All bracket mounted engines should give at least 8-10% better top speeds and improved fuel efficiency than the same engine(s)and propellor(s)transom mounted plus better steering at speed and more engine trimability. 3. MORE INTERIOR SPACE - You can cut out the old motor well or you can convert it to additional seating, a stern casting deck or additional storage space. (See the Hermco link for pictures of some he has done.) 4. STRENGTHEN THE TRANSOM - Brackets with full width integral swim platforms spread the motor weight and leverage out over most of the transom. A properly designed bracket can be used on most SeaCrafts in stead of replacing the original core and/or raising the transom height - For not a lot more money and a lot less work!!! CHECK OUT the complete Seamark ALL FIBERGLASS Transom Brackets and Transom Closing Systems at the Hermco link. And by the way, who ever thought it made sense to put a permanent ALUMINUM extension on a good FIBERGLASS BOAT----

I appreciate some of the comments here. I have been admiring Hermco’s work and the work of Bigshrimpin and Strick as I consider a bracket for my 23. If anyone has input on the self-bailing characteristics of a 23 with thru-floor scups and a bracket (any type) I’m all ears ;) Is re-routing the scups mandatory (of sorts)? The other question/comment I have is it seems a lot of the 23’s that ad brackets fill in the rear vents….why is that?

Bigshrimpin 11-24-2008 10:35 PM

Re: Outboard Brackets, Pro's & Con's
 
I believe people patch those rear vents, b/c the break every time you land the boat at the dock.

Snookerd 11-25-2008 12:56 AM

Re: Outboard Brackets, Pro's & Con's
 
My 23 w/ an older armstrong bracket with minimal floatation still is self bailing with 2 3.0 mercs @ 900 lbs of motors. I would have the plugs in if a couple guys were in the back though. The 23's aren't prone to needing their decks raised to offset extra stern weight.

zach 11-26-2008 11:19 AM

Re: Outboard Brackets, Pro's & Con's
 
Quote:



WE WANT MORE BOAT PORN!!!!



Ha, thanks Lloyd, I really appreciated your help with the bracket. I'll have more pics coming in the next couple of days. I'm trying to aggregate and arrange them in a sensible manner.

We're putting her in the water this weekend for the first time. I'm anxious to see how she sits with the bracket. Even with the floatation chamber, that's a lot of weight to move back. I'll put up a pic so others can see how a 20 rests with 430 lbs offset 30".

Keywe 11-16-2013 07:01 PM

Hey Zach I'm thinking of the 175 as well when you get it running do mind giving your opinion and performance results please.

medic1227 12-23-2013 12:03 AM

I put a picture of my 23 on the Seacraft photo forum" ReelMojo", it shows a accurate waterline height with twin 175's

curapa 05-09-2014 08:54 PM

I have read multiple times that hydraulic steering is needed for a bracketed boat but I haven't seen the reason why? Is a zero feedback system out off the question on a bracketed boat?

Bushwacker 05-09-2014 10:13 PM

Not sure how you would route the steering cables. Can't make tight radius turns with a steering cable, so seems like they would have to be hanging out in the breeze to get back to the bracket! It's easy to make a neat installation with hydraulic lines and 90 degree fittings. The only problem I see with the SeaStar system is the dang end seals in the cylinder don't hold up. I ran a Hynautic system for 28 years, and NEVER had a leak. Have had to replace the SeaStar seals twice in only 8 years!

curapa 05-09-2014 10:30 PM

Gotcha, makes sense. I guess I'll just have to pony up the dough...

Bushwacker 05-10-2014 06:32 PM

One thing to consider on the hydraulic steering, is that it's quite a bit slower than cable systems with the standard (small displacement) helm pump, like over 5.5 turns lock to lock. They make 3 different size pumps, so I went with medium size pump. Was concerned with steering effort with largest pump, but steering is very easy, so if I were to do over again, I'd go with the largest pump.

One other thing to consider is that the stroke on the cylinder is too short! I've checked various suppliers and they all seem to be the same (too short) length! Needs to be at least 1-2" longer, since it doesn't turn motor all the way to the stops. Motor turns 10-15 degrees more on each side if I disconnect hydraulic cylinder from tiller bar! My old system was homemade and designed using Hynautic parts to put motor on the stops. I noticed a significant loss in maneuverability after installing the bracket and SeaStar system. I initially blamed it on the bracket shifting pivot point of boat, until I discovered that the motor wasn't turning as far as it did before! If you're running a single, expect some loss in low speed maneuverability compared to a cable system!

curapa 05-11-2014 12:02 PM

Good info. I'm looking at a Seastar 2.4 helm right now. I thought about the Baystar kit, seeing as I can find the whole setup for around $550 new, but I haven't gotten too much positive feedback about those kits, I'll also be running a 150 so I'll be at the max hp rating.

Bushwacker 05-11-2014 12:33 PM

Even the Seastar quality doesn't appear to be equal to the old Hynautic hardware, so I'd definitely stay away from the cheaper Baystar stuff!

Bertram87 02-19-2016 04:09 PM

Brackets, Bilges and MORE!
 
I know this is an older post, but cant seem to find my answers in any of the posts I have searched. I am going to be rejuvenating my 1984 23' Sceptre and will be installing a flotation bracket. i have two separate questions:

1) Has anyone installed a Bilge Pump with an alarm inside the bracket? I ask because I haven't seen any, but if there is a leak or a crack you wouldn't know until it was too late. If I was to do it I would plumb it back into the main hull and route it out next to or "T" it into the existing Bilge output line. It would have a float with an alarm obviously. My Sceptre was really close to sinking because of a leaky hatch in a prior season so that pit of a feeling when your boat is sitting way too low in the slip is still fresh in my memory.

2) the newer Minkota type electric trolling motors have a phone app or GPS positioning interface which is really cool for bass and flats boats. Has anyone installed one on a 23' or are they too weak to push that much weight , and secondly has anyone tried mounting (temporarily of course) on the stern bracket instead of the bow and have a quick disconnect system so its not constantly being washed out by saltwater. I know they are generally not designed for this application because they are more for Pull style application, but it would be great to have this for NJ Striper bridge fishing and also backwater flounder fishing.

Maybe I'm nutty or I just gave away 2 big ideas. :D

Bushwacker 02-19-2016 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bertram87 (Post 241830)
. . . If I was to do it I would plumb it back into the main hull and route it out next to or "T" it into the existing Bilge output line. It would have a float with an alarm obviously. . .

If you T'd into existing line, you'd have to have a check valves between T and main pump and the bracket pump. Otherwise the main pump would pump water into flotation tank and/or the tank pump would pump water into bilge! The check valves would restrict flow from both pumps, so the tank pump should have it's own outlet, probably in main hull, since an outlet in the tank would probably be too close to waterline. The alarm is a good idea, but I wouldn't use an automatic pump in tank unless it had an automatic counter rigged up on it, because then you could have a leak and never know it!


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