My 23
 

I know it's not a Classic Classic as in Potter built, but how many of you can say yours is truly a Potter built at this point? It is more likely a (your last name here) built at this point in the game. Transoms, decks, wiring, engines, customization; just go ahead and put your last name in front. Unless you happen to find that garage kept, rarely used boat, most 20-30 year old boats in use have suffered some rot or other damage, usually always from unsealed previously "added" holes. http://i447.photobucket.com/albums/q...rtfrtsmall.jpg http://i447.photobucket.com/albums/q.../sportport.jpg http://i447.photobucket.com/albums/q...lehelmcopy.jpg http://i447.photobucket.com/albums/q...icmefishsm.jpg

Re: My 23
 

I know what you mean. I have several strickcraft's sitting around here. Nice boat. I like your dash lay out. Whats that little walkie talkie looking thing? Is it some sort of vhf?

strick

Re: My 23
 

Strick , I believe it is a remote, looks like one for autopilot, perhaps wireless vhf remote. one or the other, again, I believe.

Re: My 23
 

strick,

That is autopilot, a Raymarine S1000 system for boats 25' and under. I have it interfaced with my GPS, so I "Goto" a waypoint, sync it, and it takes me there. It does take batteries, AAA's, which I carry spares of and seem to last for about 8-10 hrs. of use. Raymarine calls it a "fishing" autopilot so it has strategies to zig-zag, circle, or cloverleaf a spot.

Re: My 23
 

10-4 thanks fellas

strick

Re: My 23
 

Nice boat Ripndip,

I am proud to say that our 25 is truly a Potter built. She will be 34 in May. There will come a day when some major restoration will be required but she will always remain, IMO a Potter built. I'm not going to try to take credit for someone elses genious. We have to give credit where credit is due. If it wasn't a Potter to begin with, I'm sure these fellows wouldn't have done what they have done to make these boats new again.

This is just my opinion.

Re: My 23
 

With out Moesly...no Potter Built ;)

Re: My 23
 

Ripndip,

What did you end up doing with the prop selection? Also, what size are your Yamaha's and what are your performance numbers?

I am running twin 200 OX66's right now.

I probably get about 1.6 to 1.7 MPG at cruise (unless it is real snotty out). And my WOT is probably around 54MPH. Just curious as I may end up with the HPDI's one day.

Thanks,

Peter

Re: My 23
 

Amen brother.

Re: My 23
 

Peter B,
I switched the lower units turning the props inboard instead of outboard- if you decide to try this the engine toe will have to be changed from 1/4" toed out (what is normal) to 1/4" toed in to compensate for the pressure the prop direction places on the engine. Your steering tie bar should be adjustable. The theory is the 1/4" of slack is taken up when running making them close to dead straight. If you don't do this, it will be squirrelly.

My engines are 04 150 HPDI's. I am "squared up" 3000= 30 mph 4000= 40 mph, for the most part. I have 6" setback jackplates, and have moved weight forward to compensate. I consistently get between 2.0 and 2.5 mpg, with 1.9 mpg at wide open 53-5400 and 53-54 mph. These are real gps numbers. In perfect conditions a couple weekends ago I got 55.6mph on gps full fuel, cold weather with 15kt tailwind and chop on top. The boat will always do at least 52.

I was going to try a new set of props, but after switching the lower units and replacing the Bennett 12x12's with Lenco 12x16 heavy duty I am much happier. The boat does not want to porpoise at all, even with more weight forward, and fuel consumption is slightly better, ride MUCH better. The engines run up faster, and turn slightly more RPM's. I can also finally have a slower plane speed of 23-24 mph by laying the tabs down. Also, this combination helped with the problem that caused me to switch the drives back out (I spun them in for almost a year) in the first place- prop blowout in heavy seas/slow/coming down the back of one wave going up the face of the next. I have tried this setup in some pretty rough stuff and it has completely lost that problem. I am currently spinning 21P Mercury Laser II's.

Regarding your boat, I am surprised it isn't considerably faster. The few 23's I've talked to with T200's had easy 60mph + top speeds (23P props). The OX66's weren't known as "speed" engines like some of the old two stroke Merc's but are good dependable engines, and still should have the two stroke power band. You mentioned earlier how you have spun a few 21's, I think SWS. SWS are great, high quality props, but they ran TERRIBLE on my boat. I think the large diameter and big blade surface area are too much for a 23' boat (remember your spinning two of them) in that they seemed to "manhandle" my boat. Any trim out at lower RPM made the boat into a porpoise stunt boat. Tabs were necessary to run smoothly in calm water/stop porpoising. Also, the entry angle of the V must have been slightly off because rather than slice through boat wakes like it does now, it would slam/jar/breaking glass with the SWS through what it eats up now. I require NO tabs to run my boat in calm water at any normal planing speed with the current setup.

I would also be curious what mounting height your at. The rule of thumb I've heard of is for every foot back from the end (bottom) of the transom, the cavitation plate should be 1" higher. My manual jackplates are adjusted as low as possible without interfering with my steering ram, but this still leaves the cavitation plates approximately 1" higher than the bottom of the boat for only 6" setback. I experimented with higher settings, but like the performance best at this setting. Higher settings make the boat faster, the tradeoff is possible lack of water pressure, more likely to blow out in turns or heavy seas.

In your setup, I would check mounting height and consider trying a smaller diameter prop in 21P spun inboard. The 23 Seacraft is a heavy, solid glass boat. Spinning the props in give stern lift, which on a lighter boat could be dangerous- I heard Contenders just can't do it. Jupiter and Island Runner have been doing it for years.

Unfortunately there are a lot of variables to consider, all of which can make substantial differences- props spun in, mounting height, toe, prop diameter, number of blades, etc. I have done a lot of experimenting with these factors (except the four blades) because I'm passionate about my boat. Unfortunately for you and I, we don't have anyone to cheat off of like a 31' Jupiter where someone has already tried everything.

Aside from smaller diameter, I seem to have better performance from props with little or no visible cup. I don't know the reason for this, but the three props that ran the best were Michigan Rapture (first set I tried after 19P SWS that came on the boat), OLD Mirage 21P- not Mirage Plus (hard to find, 15yr old prop, slightly too much prop but ran great), and the Laser II's (best yet).

I'm not sure what tabs your running, but the 12x16's are unbelievable in comparison to the 12x12's. The one down side to the Lenco's is they are kicking up spray in some conditions.

Probably the best advise I can give you is not to listen to any one "expert" unless he has the exact same boat/setup as you. If I would have listened to 98% of the advise given when I was contemplating the first second set of props, I would have left the boat alone with its porpoising, slamming, 49 mph tops and crappy fuel consumption. Everyone that goes fishing with me (some very seasoned captains in the group) is amazed at the ride, speed, and fuel burn at which I am able to run comfortably in my little 23.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to say how your boat will act without trying these things. The lower unit swap is free, just your time. Let me know if there is any other info I can help with.

S

Re: My 23
 

Ripndip,

Wow, what a textbook response on how to dial your boat in.

Since I bought some barely used rev 4's (19" pitch) and did not pay too much for them I will give them a shot and let you know how I make out (and will take it from there).

Also, nice swordfish. They are brutes to fight aren't they?

Peter

Re: My 23
 

I rigged twin engines on boats from the mid-70's through the mid-90's, and I never rigged counter-rotating engines to rotate inward. Never. In fact, I have only seen this done once in my life, and that was when the 30' Rybo Runner was brought to me to correct it's handling problems after repowering at a different marina.

Left-hand engine rotates left, right-hand engine rotates right. To do the opposite sets up greater lower-unit drag as a result of the confluence of water pressure each motor applies to the other. This is the result of what is called "P" factor, which is the sideways thrust exerted by a rotating pitched propeller. You want to point that thrust away from your submerged running surfaces as much as possible.

Mount the motors on the transom bracket and align the front and back vertical edges of the lower units as measured below the cavitation plate to be 1/4" closer at the front edge than at the back edge with a standard 24" motor separation. This is toe-in. Add 1/4" of inward toe for each 6" of motor separation over 24", as measured at the leading edge of the lower unit below the cavitation plate. The toe-in IS NOT adjusted for distance behind the transom, but motor mounting height IS.

For identical rotation engines, i.e.; both RH rotation, the amount of toe-in is increased slightly. Start with 3/8" to 1/2", and then increase by 1/4" increments.

Because the outer motor in a turn has to travel farther in the turn, regardless of whether your motors or rotating inward or outward, you always must have toe-in, never toe-out, or else you are wasting power by working the engines against each other in every turn.

Re: My 23
 

Right on Terry , you tell 'em.
True, Dat! Can I get a witness? Amen, again.
Let's not forget where it started... ?hello? did anyone read the patent? Sorry, just trying to be a funny guy.

Re: My 23
 

K guys I was going to mention that but I thought it went without saying. No disrespect intended but we were on the subject of Potter built.

Re: My 23
 

Peter B and Fr. Frank,

Thanks on the swordfish, yes that fish (the big one), cost me thousands of after bought gear. It was my second ever, the first was about an hour before that and weighed about 10 lbs. That one took 2 1/2 hours on 80W 80lb test 21lbs of drag.

Fr. Frank you are absolutely correct with the toe-in/out terminology. My apologies. I wasn't thinking about it referencing the front of the boat. Normal outward prop rotation has TOE IN- the lower units are closest at the leading edge. I'm glad you mentioned that before I possibly misled Peter B or someone else.

I will strongly disagree with you on the assumption that almost nobody rotates props in. Go look at any Jupiter, Island Runner, and I think Venture does it too- right from the factory. It is also done quite often on cigarette and other go fast boats. IF you do decide to try it and do not change from (corrected) TOE IN to TOE OUT you will have less than desirable handling characteristics.

As far as it not working, or yielding negative results, I can only say how it works on my setup. If anyone really wants to see and/or feel the difference, I invite you to come for a ride, I'm in North Palm Beach, FL.

PeterB, let me know how the rev 4's do. I'm so pleased with how my boat is running now I've put the props on the back burner and just ordered the new 1K 20 degree tilted transducer. When I put in the first 20 degree ducer, two years ago, Airmar only made it in single element 600W. The new one is three elements, 1K, and substantially larger. The bottom deadrise step of the 23 is almost exactly 20 degrees so I've had good performance with the 600W- 15-1800 ft 2200 once. Can't wait to try the new one.

S

Re: My 23
 

Here is the big one: http://i447.photobucket.com/albums/q...aveskybow3.jpg

Re: My 23
 

How heavy was the big one? Hope you were wearing a harness.

I like to be macho and all that but that must have been torture (until you got the fish in the boat).

I love the BFT's that we caught up north this year (see below picture of a 130 pound BFT) but i got him on a system 30 after about a 1.5 hour fight (with 13 pounds of drag). But that big sword is in another category IMO.

Peter

[image]http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n...eternewbft.jpg[/image]

Re: My 23
 

PeterB,
Rodney did a lot of the work (the rod holder). We estimated 300 lbs. I have another pic of me laying beside him and he is much longer than me stretched out. He was the thickness of my waist at his tail. Nice Tuna. I'm hoping to get into some of those in the coming year.

Skyler

Re: My 23
 

Fr. Frank,

My apologies again. NOW you can say you have seen them turned in TWICE.


http://i447.photobucket.com/albums/q...ll/propsin.jpg

Hope your smiling cause I'm giggling. It was the NEVER that got me.

Skyler

Re: My 23
 

A little good nature banter is always fun, don't take it personal. :D

But don't let it happen again :D :D :D

Re: My 23
 

I will be sure to be more thorough next time :D

Re: My 23
 

Okay. I have seen them turned in twice. :D

Seriously, I was part of the team that did the factory prop setups for Mercruiser sterndrive and Mercury and Yamaha outboard powered Wellcraft Scarab and Excaliber offshore boats in the mid-late 80's. While we discussed inward rotation, we decided against it because of the "P" factor. As I recall, some slide-rule engineer calculated a 3-4% loss of thrust from submerged inward rotation, a loss not present with surface-piercing propellers and running semi-submerged.

Which, by the way, is why the standard twin engine setup for the 27' Wellcraft Nova II and 26' Wellcraft Antigua back '86 to '89 was Mercruiser 350/260's with two RH Alpha drives. Counter-rotation was offered as an option. Best performance and the standard factory setup was with twin RH 23"P surface-piercing thru-hub Cleavers, so rotational direction/ "P" factor wasn't really a issue. With CR drives, we used outward rotating ventilated Mirage propellers.

I will say this, I have seen CR props installed by a dockhand onto the wrong lower units on twin Zuke 250's after 100hr service. That was just two weeks ago. The owner shoved the controls forward and promptly backed into into the dock, cracking both cowlings. :(
Needless the say, the Marina owner wasn't happy about having to give the guy new cowlings. On the other hand, you should never put your boat in gear and throttle up at the same time right at the dock, without clearing the dock and other boats first. :D

Re: My 23
 

Father Frank,

So, are you saying that I will need to look into a rearview mirror to drive forward? :D

Re: My 23
 

Don't tell me you drive your boat around bass ackwards too! :D :D

Re: My 23
 

I'm glad to see you have a sense of humor. It's almost impossible to exist these days without one.

One of my clients has three boats, a 65 Buddy Davis, a 35 Cigarette, and a 26 Regulator. The Cigarette is a classic, and he just put new engines in. He listened to the guy who sold him the engines on the original set of props, and was unhappy with the ride and speed of the boat- it wanted to porpoise and wasn't any faster when he increased horsepower by 100 a side. I suggested trying a different set of props for the ride, and also suggested he could try spinning the props in. He has tried several sets of props since then, and was instantly pleased with the first set/smaller diameter/more pitch which I switched and then seatrialed with/for him. He has since switched the drives and turned the props in and has picked up speed and ride and is now looking for an even higher pitch set of props.

Because of this result, he is now going to try spinning the props in on the '08 26 Regulator. It is another heavy center console deep V boat. I will let you know the results when he tells me.

I spoke with Ken? from Prop Gods regarding spinning props inward, and he agreed that it can yield positive results in some applications. He told me of a boat he tried it on-27 Fountain with very bad results. I guess with the "reliefs" in the bottom of the boat combined with the props spinning in he was unable to get the boat on plane and immediately switched them back. I have also heard of a few people trying to do it with Contenders. Not good results with those. Not really a surprise as the 23' Contender has the exact same length and width as a 23 Seacraft with more (23 degrees) deadrise and weighs 800 lbs. less. They are light boats that don't do well with stern lift, and IMO don't do well anyway!

It is just impossible to say what will happen until you try.

Re: My 23
 

I'm old school, and have been out of the high performance field for almost 20 years. I never tried spinning inwards, I just believed the engineers who told us why it was a bad idea. I do know that with that Rybo Runner we switched the lower units on, we pick up quite a bit of performance by changing over to spinning outwards. But a Rybo Runner also had a 10' beam, with the motors mounted a full 4' apart, center to center.