10 Percent Ethanol
 

Well the day finally has gotten here it seems the 10 percent ethanol is in the usual gas stations that I fill me boat at. I like most guys have read the press and the problems that can occur.

What are you guys doing that have all ready faced it?
Are you using additives?
What I see is if I burn up a tank of gas in 90 days and use a fuel water separator changing it out every 50 hrs. with a 10 micron filter I should be OK.


FellowShip

Just for the Grins :D

Re: 10 Percent Ethanol
 

I see your from Cooper City. I work at Bahia Mar Marina in Fort Lauderdale. We sell 89 octane Ethanol free. Thought you might like to know because I think we are the only Marina that does.

Re: 10 Percent Ethanol
 

Startron - Startron - Startron!!!!

When I was having problems with my Whitewater that stuff did wonders. I try to use it in my Parker if it going to sit for more than a few weeks. I use it for layover and it works great. In the Northeast we got it shoved down our throats about 5 years ago without knowing. :rolleyes:

Re: 10 Percent Ethanol
 

i havent had an ethanol problem yet. i just changed my racor after about 2 years. i used 1 bottle of startron but that was a while ago and i havent gotten it again. i usually use the boat enough and keep it filled with fuel.

Re: 10 Percent Ethanol
 

[QUOTE]
Startron - Startron - Startron!!!!

I`ve been waiting for this thread.
I found my `89 20 18 mos ago. It was owned by a flipper who said it may be over proped as it would only turn 4500 wot. I thought it had been sitting and needed a carb job. Comp was 90 1-6cyls on the dot. I am now going to have to rebuild them again as I didn`t know that the gaskets and needle tips were not e10 resistant or at the time that they even needed to be. The needle tips will get soft and stick SHUT. The gaskets will swell and hang up the floats. Either way it needs to be addressed. Leaning out = boom! I changed out my Racor 30 mic in August. I can`t run any finer because my Ocean Pro`s fuel pump won`t pull it. Yami guys can, not sure about Mercs, and Zukes, but I would if I could. Trolling bonita plugs up to Juno 2 wks ago and decide to pick up and run up to the inside reefs for some Schnappah and the check engine light comes on. I shut down and we limp back at 2000. Pulled the pickups. Fine. Replaced the line w/ e10 resistant. Still showing 4#s of vacuum between the filter and bulb at IDLE. Unscrew the 30 hr Racor and it`s LOADED with what looks like untreated sewage. Changed it out and the needle is bouncing on the peg at idle. Under 1 # where it should be at idle. I now carry 2 spare filters.

I started running Star Tron in August and it has never run finer, but my tank is 20 yrs. old and full of who knows what. It`s an enzyme and will remove any and all crud in your tank. It is supossed to eliminate phase seperation which is the enemy here. Atomized gas will compress nicely, water not so much. Phase seperation causes an octane drop as well , so I can`t be cheap with the 87 octane anymore. I run Techron from the auto store as well. I ONLY buy gas from the new BP station, as old stations have old tanks.

NoBones recommends Sierra e10 resistant products and many others like them too.

People are saying that you`ll hear a small rpm drop, maybe 200, followed by bad sounds. It may be tiresome, but as a former motorcycle adrenaline junkie, I keep my hand on the throttle. Just might save your motor if you can shut down in time. Maybe some road rash too.
Happy New Year
GFS
Live baiting for sails in this economy in the morning, so I`ll stop by the pawn shop and pick up some hooks.

Re: 10 Percent Ethanol
 

im wondering, i have the racor filter with the bowl on the bottom but its really a pain to change in my boat. is there a REAL BIG advantage to using that filter opposed to just using the closed filters?? they would be easier to change because the little drain on the bowl hits when i try to unscrew it. im thinking of this incase i ever had to change it on the water.

Re: 10 Percent Ethanol
 

Good conversation on the 10% ethanol. My buddy is up to about $900 to $1000 in repairs on his Yamaha 225 due to gas "gumming up" his fuel pump....and possibly the injectors for even some more expenses. You can't say it was bad gas because there was nothing wrong with it when he bought it, however to me it's letting the boat sit and the gas going bad due to heat, condensation issues, etc. Using Startron, double dosage, and running the engine, not just an idle but at normal rpms on a regular basis seems to work fine for me. You just can't let them sit!!!

Re: 10 Percent Ethanol
 

I just orderd a carb kit for the 50 yamaha on my sons boat. the float inlet needles keeps sticking closed. I hope the new parts help otherwise I'll probably have to drain the carbs if I know its going to sit for a couple weeks.

Re: 10 Percent Ethanol
 

Get the bowl. You can see water, trash, etc.

I think the opposite applies now...Fill the tank, go fishing on fresh gas and try to minimize the amount you keep for long periods, and add stabil or similar.

Re: 10 Percent Ethanol
 

i guess all the ethanol problems are outboards only? anyone had any issues in an I/O?

Re: 10 Percent Ethanol
 

We have had a lot of descussion in Florida over this ethanol gas. There are some motors that have had problems, some that haven't. I saw a fuel line out of a merc optimax that desolved from the inside, and gummed up the fuel system. I have seen some nasty filters and clogged carbs.

Some have problems, some don't. It seems to have more to do with the conditon of the fuel tank. I put a new tank in my boat, and replaced all the lines/rigging when I did it. I haven't had more than a couple of teaspons of water after burning 100's of gallons of gas. Older boats with old tanks with newer motors seem to be the ones that are having the most problem. If I was repowering, I would probably replace the gas tank, or at least have it cleaned.

This is what seems to happen, if you have junk or water in your tank, the alcohol will clean it out and send it into the filters/motor. Startron seems to work well as a stabilizer/additive. One thing I have noticed is I lost about 4-6% in fuel economy, mpg/gph using ethanol.

As for inboards, I worked on a carb on an inboard that the float would just not work right with this alcohol gas. After running a couple of hours, it would "soak up", and then want to flood the engine. I tried replacing the float and rebuilding the carb, no luck. Finally ended up putting a aftermarket edelbrock carb on it, and now it runs great.

Re: 10 Percent Ethanol
 

My primer bulb rotted from the inside. Replaced it with an ethanol "proof" one. My fuel pump went bad (carbed 150 Johnson) a couple months after my stations started pushing ethanol. I now use a filter with a clear bottom so I'll be able to see the little black pieces when my fuel line starts to deteriorate [img]/forum/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]. Hopefully that won't happen to the 520 series alcohol rated lines. My tank should be clean; I installed it 3 years ago. I was advised to use startron if the fuel was going to be unused for more than 2 weeks. Don't forget your lawn mowers and other small engines.

Re: 10 Percent Ethanol
 

you nailed it.I have had my lawn mower repaired twice and each time it has acted up just as all of you have described . power starts to be reduced until finally it is puffing smoke and skipping.Twin cyl. 22 hp briggs .It eventually bent an exhaust valve in both instances an it is doing it again , the last time the repairman said he thoyught it needed a new carb.

Re: 10 Percent Ethanol
 

Related question to this link....
if my boat sits in driveway with a full tank of fuel and I run it on the hose once a week for about 10 minutes at a time...should I use a fuel stabilizer etc. in the fuel..or is this mainly for people up north that winterize boats for long periods of time and do not have a chance to start motor?? I am able to take out boat approx 1 time every two months!

Re: 10 Percent Ethanol
 

From what I'm told, those of us still pre-mixing oil have no problems. It's all oil-injected motors that have the issue. Add fuel injection and things get worse.

I went all season with a smoky, carb'd pre-mix Evinrude that didn't hiccup once even after sitting at the slip for 3-4 weeks.

Re: 10 Percent Ethanol
 

YAY PRE-MIX!!!!! i love my old motor. it just sat for 2 months and besides the overheating had no fuel issues.

Re: 10 Percent Ethanol
 

This is absolutely freaking ridiculous! Fiberglass tank replaced on my 15 Whaler with [censored] in my fuel injectors! 10 micron Racor seperator not enough! Another 15 being rebuilt now. Custom aluminum fuel tank again! Can't even imagine whats in my 79 SeaCraft, but 70 gallons. Pumped out three years ago, by me, and found no problems. I don't rebuild my own carbs, and cost is out of control! Every kind of additive known to man. This is absolutely NUTS! Whats it going to take? News says that ethanol production is more costly than barrels of foreign oil, AND electric cars! I can't even keep my freakin' Stihl running! COME ON!!!

Sorry for the RANT but replacing fuel cells, custom built with todays prices on metal, additives up the arse, and outboard warranties that don't want to hear CRAP? What are we supposed to do? I'm sorry...maybe I have too many gas powered toys and tools. Just HAD to let it go...Part II.

Re: 10 Percent Ethanol
 

Fred - I would always use a fuel stabilizer, even if you weren't running ethenol. The oxygenated fuels that were developed a few years ago to reduce emissions seem to break down pretty quickly otherwise, even if they don't have alcohol in them. The alcohol just makes it worse by adding the phase separation problem, disolving any crud in the tank and attacking any rubber or plastic parts that aren't designed for it. The E-Tec's are supposed to be ok with up to 10% alcohol, and so far I've had zero problems. I did pull the tank and clean it real good when I repowered, and I've tried to avoid ethanol as much as possible, but looks like those days are over! Will switch to Startron from Stabil when I start buying E10. One factor that helps the DI engines is that the fuel system (except for the fuel in the tank) is sealed, so fuel is not exposed to oxygen, which should help it last a little longer.

Re: 10 Percent Ethanol
 

Just got back from Boaters World and picked up a bottle of Startron and a Racor Gas/H2o separator filter. I hope looking and seeing what is going into my motor will help me keep up with the potential problems. At lease I will feel better at the gas station when I fill up in the future.

I am thinking of keeping my old filter with the canister in the bilge and installing the Racor on the transom where I can see it and deal with it easy.

That would be a total of 3 filters. One in the bilge with regular filter in it, then the Racor on the transom and then there is the filter in my Yahama engine. I also have a Standard brand fuel scan meter hooked up on this fuel line as well which gives me readings like GPM, total gallons per trip. I almost forgot the fuel bulb which I squeezed once in 7 years.

Could this be a problem getting my fuel to the motor with all this extra stuff????


FellowShip

Just for the Grins :D

Re: 10 Percent Ethanol
 

If the filters are clean, they offer very little resistance.
I run a 2 filter system, one with the bowl to keep an eye on things, and one on the motor that has a water sensor/alarm. I think 3 might be a little over the top.
I NEVER find anything in the second filter.

Re: 10 Percent Ethanol
 

Question concerning I/O potential problems. YES there are problems.
A. When you first start using Ethanol enhanced fuel, any crud in the tank finds it's way very quickly to the filters and engine.
B. 10 Micron Filter is a must.
C. Initial service frequency about 25 Hours. You will surprised at the amount of crud you will find in the filter.
D. YOU MUST UPGRADE ALL FUEL LINE, FILL AND VENT LINES IMMEDIATELY. They will get real SOFT and Fall Apart. Not a Pretty sight, all that gas in the bilge.
E. If you have a fiberglass tank, REPLACE immediately.
F. Marginal Aluminum Tank REPLACE Immediately. Any marginal areas or deep pit 's will be eaten thru by the ethanol. For all you old timers remember when midgets and indy cars never filled their tanks until the race. The fuel was ethal alchol/ethanol.
G. ONLY BUY FUEL FROM A HIGH VOLUME STATION. Fuel will phase seperate at the station if they do not get a delivery at LEAST ounce a week.
H. Infrequent use will lead to problems. If you only us your boat every other week you are in trouble.
I. STAR TRON IS NOW YOUR WAY OF LIFE. USE CONSTANTLY!!!!

Blew two NEW 3.0liter Mercruiser's in one year when this stuff first came out.

BOBBERT

Re: 10 Percent Ethanol
 

YUP!
When I restored my boat I made sure to install a stainless filter head, 2 Micron Filter water seperator with clear bowl & purgevalve, Goodyear ethanol resistant fuel Line with Dupont Flouroelastomer lining, Fill Hoses and vent hoses , ethanol proof. Here is a link
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Goody...QQcmdZViewItem

BTW Autozone has the fuel hose, it is often called Fuel injection hose. I also went with Poly Tanks so I would never have to worry about corrosion. Aluminum tanks will also "perspire" internally especially here in Florida with the frequent temperature swings. Any marine mechanic will tell you the ethanol problems are increasing at a very high frequency. You guys with carbed engines will see what looks like corrosion / crust etc in the carbs and carb bowls,My buddy has a newer carbed Yamaha and it is wreaking havoc on his outboard. I would store boa with as little fuel as possible even if only for a week or two.

Re: 10 Percent Ethanol
 

I use my boat infrequently, and I can no longer buy pure gas without ethanol, unless I go to Dunnellon Airport and buy 100 octane unleaded for $3.95 a gallon, or drive 78 mile RT and buy Sunoco 100 race gas in Ocala. It's currently $3.23 gal.

I have a Racor filter, and I drain a quart or more of separated alcohol and water every time I use it. I have new tank, lines, fittings, etcetera, but lately my boat is lucky to hit the water once every 90 days or so.

My Merc dealer suggested SeaFoam added at every fill-up, 1/2 oz per gallon, or use the new formula Sta-Bil designed for ethanol fuels.

Re: 10 Percent Ethanol
 

In Crystal River at the Mystic station accross from Wendy's has ethonal free gas.

Re: 10 Percent Ethanol
 

FR. Frank, SeaFoam is the greatest! It is great as a decarbon material full strength. I shoot some in each cylinder and I will dunk Spark plugs in it, I will also use it to clean the o2 sensor. I contacted thier tech support to verify that this was ok. I also use it to decarb my vehicle cylinders . they make DeepCreep also same thing just in an aerosol can, I believe.

Re: 10 Percent Ethanol
 

When we first started producing ethanol fuels many studies were done, the largest issue other then the separation factor is moisture absortion. Ethanol attracts moisture out of the air very rapidly. We were seeing a 2-3% plus, growth in moisture over a 30 day span in storage tanks that were not kept completly full. Meaning a 3000 gl tank would actualy end up with a LOT of water in it after a 30 day period. Keeping your tank full may be a hassle but it is well worth it, as well as using the additives. QMI out of Lakeland has a product called triple T (Tune That Tank) that is without a doubt one of the best water dispersers I have ever seen.

Re: 10 Percent Ethanol
 

Thanks, I'm planning to splash her tomorrow just to go burn some fuel. :D

Re: 10 Percent Ethanol
 

I would hope that a reasonably new I/O wold have adequate hoses...(2006 model)??

I happen to have a fuel tank with dual pickups and I have a 4S kicker with the I/O......If the boat sits any time I dosconnect the fuel line from the kicker and pump gass from the tank until I get clean fuel. Simple effort that can save you some problems.

Re: 10 Percent Ethanol
 

I installed a Recor filter and using Star Tron. I read their info and it seams that I can stop using Ring Free and just switch over to Star Tron will do what Ring Free does plus deal with the ethanol gas problem. I am going to see if I can find ethanol free gas but that could be difficult we will see.
Although posts are still coming I want to thank everyone for their input so far.


FellowShip

Just for the Grins :D

Re: 10 Percent Ethanol
 

I hope this doesn’t happen to me.


http://outdoorsbest.zeroforum.com/zerothread?id=825129




FellowShip

Just for the Grins :o

Re: 10 Percent Ethanol
 

First let me introduce myself. Bought a 1976 cc 23’ about two years ago and I’m about half done with a total rebuild. I don’t pretend to be very knowledgeable about the rebuild process but I’m learning with the help of the search feature in this web site. If I was twenty years younger the boat would be done by now.
With the ten percent ethanol situation I do have firsthand knowledge and, it’s not pretty. When the changeover occurred up here in New England a couple of years ago anyone who had a small amount of water on the bottom of their tank, below the pickups, found that water being absorbed into the ethanol portion of their gas. If there is enough water, then you have phase separation. Combine that with the cleaning properties of alcohol and it made for a nasty mix on the bottom of the tank. Keep in mind that this new gas can absorb .5% water (about two tablespoons) per gallon before you have this phase separation. When it does separate, it essentially drops out, all at once, in a short period of time. If you buy gas from a station that has water at bottom of their tanks, then it will take even less water in your tank, to cause this phase separation. Because it happens so quickly and its ten percent of the fuel you have in your tank it gets picked up and quickly overcomes any water separation properties of your fuel filters. Any soluble crap in your tank, passes through even the best filter, and now sits in all the low points of your fuel system. In my case,when winterizing, the motor stalled, and didn’t restart and run well until the system was flushed out using the bulb with a remote tank with the injectors pulled. . The motor was then winterized using fresh gas with Stabil and Startron. What I didn’t know was, this nasty mix was still in the lowest points of the fuel system and over the winter months the soluble elements within this mix precipitated out into black granules that looked like fine coffee grounds. Needless to say, the whole fuel system had to be dismantled and cleaned, but not before getting stranded on the lake, replacing all the injectors, having them get clogged and stuck on the lake again. Very costly to say the least. Remove the water before adding ethanol fuel, MDR EZorb will do this and also eliminate phase separation if you can’t pump it out, but you have to agitate the tank for it to work. A ride on a trailer would work. They recommend pumping air bubbles into your tank to mix it. Not practical if you ask me. Pump it out if you can. The gas part of the phase separation I mixed with high octane gas and used in an old suburban without a problem (about 25 gals.). I wasn’t confident enough to put it in my wife's car. If you find yourself removing water alcohol mix from your fuel filter it means there is a lot more sloshing around under the pickup in your tank. It also means the fuel left is a lot lower octane. There is also talk of the mbte gas and new gas having a reaction that forms a gel like substance that clogs injectors as well. I can’t comment on that. I winterize now with stabil and a racing fuel that has no ethanol. There is a debate out there now on whether to keep the tank full or empty it out during a long layup. I would keep the tanks empty in the winter and when I started up in the Spring, use something like EZorb when filling up and use Startron religiously all summer if I was still using the main tank. I now use remote tanks and keep the gas very fresh. I’m running a Merc 115 on a 17’ boat and it’s all I need. I did pull the 17 year old aluminum tank last Winter. The inside was as clean and shiny as the day it was made thanks to the new gas. The Seacraft has new aluminum tanks and will be treated this way over the winter unless I learn something new between now and then. If you southerners are just starting to see this stuff take it serious. Even with a fuel stabilizer this new gas doesn’t hold up very well over long layups (2-3 months). I do envy your weather. As you can tell I have way too much time on my hands, seasonal business and, it’s too cold to work on the boat.