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Fueling/Motor problems - would appreciace input
Hey folks. So the last 2 times out, I have had what I believe is a fueling issue with my boat and am wondering if anyone has any thought before I put her in the shop.
Setup: Boat - '83 SeaCraft 20' SuperFisherman (so we know thats not the problem) Motor - 2001 Yami 200 HPDI Fueling System - Yami 10micron fuel filter which has new 3/8" fuel supply from the filter to the fuel bulb (also brand new) and through to the motor. Fill, vent and supply hoses are brand new (alcohol-friendly). Supply from the tank is 1/4" hose Tank is original as is the fuel pickup valve. Tank has been pressure tested and has no leaks Symptoms Issue does not surface until I have been running for a while - I run 3600 rpm for about 30 min to get from Harbor out to the mouth of the Patapsco. Both times I have had no issues until I hit the mouth of the river (or 30 min of somewhat hard running). Motor will choke on itself, sputter and then cut out. I can crank it back up and will start idle but under load/throttle up it will choke again. Both times as I have looked at the fuel bulb, it has been sucked flat. If I unscrew the filter, there is a great suction release but there is fuel in the filter. I would have thought that with a flat ball, there would have been no fuel in the filter. This said, it was not completely full. Filter was brand new first time and was replaced (thinking it was a clog issue) only to have the issue repeat itself. I have not dumped the contents of the filter into a jar to see if there is water in the gas. Troubleshooting I was thinking I would start by hooking up a remote tank past the current fuel bulb and run it directly to the tank. This should tell me if this is a motor or a fueling issue. From there, I would work my way back to the main tank by adding a piece of the fuel system each trial period to see if i can isolate the issue. I think that the issue is either 1) too small a fuel hose from the filter the the fuel bulb and through to the motor or 2) a bad fuel pickup valve out of the main tank. That is the only piece of the fueling system that has not been R&R'd at this point. Any thoughts/similar experiences would be helpful. Anything I could clarify, please let me know. I just put this reconditioned boat in the water and am dreadfully disappointed that I can not go fishing at this point. Thanks in advance for any assistance here. Matt |
Re: Fueling/Motor problems - would appreciace input
Read that book recently. Get a vacuum guage with a t on the end and work your way back. I replaced my tank to filter line w/ 3/8 id A1 under deck rated hose. My 30 hr filter was the culprit. Your suspects are the vent hose being kinked or vent blocked. Pickup is next on the list. I have 3/8 id alluminum tubes w notched bottoms to release any gremlins. The nylon ones w/ screens get clogged and blow motors. Change it. Use anti seize when reinstalling pick up. Permatex makes a good one. The e 10 gas we got in August cleaned out my orig tank and clogged the 30 hr Racor.
No worries, we`ll get you back on the fish in no time. GFS |
Re: Fueling/Motor problems - would appreciace input
I would say that if the fuel bulb is being sucked flat, the problem is not in the motor. My guess would be a blockage in the tank or the fuel line upstream of the filter, but my money is on an obstruction at the tank pickup. I had a similar experience with my flats skiff recently. The filter was clear, but when I took off the line to the tank and tried to blow through it, it was blocked. I cleared it with compressed air and it's been fine since. I'm still not sure what caused the problem. The tank looked pristine when I pulled the sending unit and looked inside. If your tank has a fine screen on the pickup, it could be accumulating small flakes of crud over time until it stops up.
Dave |
Re: Fueling/Motor problems - would appreciace input
Here is the ticket - Isolate and Eliminate
Its not a motor issue period - forget that Now with the bulb being sucked flat - its either the bulb - the tank pickup - an anti syphon valve or the vent. Do one at a time so you isolate and eliminate each item - first when it sucks the bulb flat open the tank fill - you get gas its the vent, you just vented it. Next - if thats not it when it sucks flat blow back through the line - that will clear the tank pickup, should be easy to blow and you should here bubbles The anti syphon valve is in the tank fitting and yes they do cause issues, personally I would take it out and use a straight fitting but I'm a rebel. The bulb itself can be checked by getting the motor started and warm, shut it down and remove the bulb itself and try it. If none of that works try bypassing the filter Its between the tank and the motor somewhere - I don't like the 1/4" line though should bigger IMHO but not the issue I don't think That will keep you from buying anything before you find out what it is - isolate and eliminate - hope this helps |
Re: Fueling/Motor problems - would appreciace input
I recently had problems on my 23WA w/bulbs sucked flat, and turned out to be a really dirty tank. The junk from the tank was filling up the pick up or else clogged the Racor filter. I ended up replacing the tank because it was seeping gas into the foam.
Make sure the inside part of the tank is clean. |
Re: Fueling/Motor problems - would appreciace input
Thanks for all the thoughts here guys. Just to clarify a few things:
Line sizes - I believe I misspoke. They are 3/8" from the tank to the filter and 5/16" from the filter to the bulb and then through to the motor. One other thing - when this issue occurred the first time, I was concerned it was the filter so I disconnected the fuel supply to the filter, blew back through it and then connected directly to the fuel bulb. Ran no issues all the way back to port. Next time out i reconnected the line to the now new filter and after 30 min of running, same issue. That set me down the line of thinking that it had to be the filter. After calling the folks that sold me the motor, he said no way it is the filter (it is the proper size for that motor 100% guarantee). He suggested anti-siphon valve, but I really dont know what/where that is. Not sure where the anti-siphon valve is - is it in or attached to the elbow coming out of the tank to which the supply line to running to the filter is attached? I understand these can clog due to e10. That elbow and the line that extends from it down into the tank to pick up gas were the only items that was not replaced in my fuel system. I have not checked venting - but to that end, if i run without the fuel cap on, dont i run a pretty big risk of getting water in the fuel? One other question - i know small outboards have a clip that helps hold the fuel line for a remote tank on. Is is likely that my motor would have one of these? Since the mechanic installed the corrugated hose that neatens things up and houses the battery, shift linkages and fuel and oil lines, I can not tell if my motor would have one. I would think not, but just wanted to bounce it off you guys. Thanks again for the comebacks. Matt |
Re: Fueling/Motor problems - would appreciace input
Go with ES Dogs suggestion anti siphon valve is just another pita. Problem lies between tank pickup and filter. The Yamaha 10 micron filter is the best on the market right now. Alcohol in gas is causing lots of problems seen quite a few hoses separating inside and closing off inside hose. Also plugging injectors.
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Re: Fueling/Motor problems - would appreciace inpu
Dixon (ESD) is right on.
The original tank uses a 3/8" pickup fitting, so the line to the filter should be 3/8". Any motor capable of pulling over 12 gph should be using a 3/8" fuel feed all the way to the motor, not a 5/16". The culprit will almost certainly be the fuel pickup or anti-siphon valve. But that's not the underlying issue. The service issue is the question of what is causing the pickup to clog or the anti-siphon valve to malfunction. You can replace the AS valve with a direct flow 90* fitting, and a new pickup line, which are fairly simple tasks. The problem is that if you've currently got trash in the tank blocking the pickup or restricting it, it'll eventually fail again even with the new hardware. My recommendation is to go ahead and pull, clean, and test the tank AND put in the new tank hardware. |
Re: Fueling/Motor problems - would appreciace inpu
OK not excatly sure what you don't understand about Isolate and Eliminate - if you take each item mentioned and disconeect that item and it runs - then that is it. If you disconnect the filter and it runs fine I don't give a rats ass what the guy that sold you the motor says thats the problem. I also don't intend for you to run around all day without the cap - come on - just crack it or something to let some air in it, thats venting the system. Thats why I told you to do each one separate - so you will know which item it is. If you crack the cap, disconnect the filter and bypass the bulb and it runs fine, which one is it - you have no clue. So disconnect the filter again if it ran fine without it, try it and if runs fine something is wrong in the filter, pretty simple. You have to remember - mariana guys are not as smart as they think they are, and your not as dumb as you think you are.
I used to be a marina guy but its too hot out there, just do what I tell you you'll find it :D |
Re: Fueling/Motor problems - would appreciace inpu
Pretty easy to check the fuel tank vent, when you put gas into the tank, you should be able to hear and feel it venting, if not use an air hose and blow back through it. May be that the screen that covers the vent on the hull is clogged, in that case a good can of carb clear or the likes will clean it for you. You may have to remove the fuel sender from the tank and take a look with an inspection light. If the tank is full of junk, as mine was, it does not take a lot of the small particle to clog the filter and or pick if there is a screen on it. My pick up tube in the original tank unscrewed from the tank and the ends a "V" notch on the bottom, no screen. I use a small HONDA/RACOR filter and it is a 10 micron and it was clogged.
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Re: Fueling/Motor problems - would appreciace inpu
Check anything lately, its almost the weekend :D
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Re: Fueling/Motor problems - would appreciace inpu
I may have been tad abrupt but I just want to get you back out there without spending bunch at some marina for nothing - my phone number is in my sig - I want your next post about a Tuna not fuel issues- isolate and eliminate your road to boating bliss :D
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Re: Fueling/Motor problems - would appreciace inpu
Thanks guys for all the suggestions. I will apologize to ESD for not following his directions post haste – I was just hoping to try and troubleshoot without investing anything if not needed. Buying a remote tank was going to be another $75+ that I would rather not have spent if it was something simple and obvious at the main tank. ;) So this past weekend I was able to give this a shot.
After popping the cover plate I found the following: http://www.s4avant.com/images/boat/Tank Pickup 1.jpg Clockwise from 7 o’clock are: - fuel pickup - fuel fill line (brand new) - fuel vent line (brand new) - mystery – alternate fuel pickup (more on that in a min) First thing I did was inspect the fuel vent. I disconnected it at the tank and blew back through. No significant difficulty in passing air through the line and there was no resistance and no change in pressure (like something moved in the line). I think this one can be checked off the list. Next I moved to the fuel pickup. In focusing on the fuel pickup, I see the following: http://www.s4avant.com/images/boat/Tank Pickup 2.jpg I'm a bit intimidated here – is it me or does this think look welded in? Maybe this is how they all look on tanks of this age? I gave it a little torque, but there was no movement. I really did not try too hard as I did not want to break something off here. I'm all ears on how to think about this one, but needless to say, since it looked welded in, I didn’t try too hard. Another question here – should the anti-siphon valve be on the outside of the tank attached to the elbow? The only thing that was attached was the fuel line nipple, and it was straight through (no valve inside). Could the anti-siphon be inside the tank? This lead me to the 4th item under the cover plate – the alternate fuel pickup. Any thoughts on this one? Is it worth trying this as a possibly un-clogged fuel pickup – just move the fuel line nipple over from where it is now? Since I struck out on the main tank, I bought a 6-gal Moeller tank with 3/8’s supply line, fuel bulb and in-line filter (just in case). To isolate that this was a motor problem, I have done as suggested and hooked this tank directly to the fuel line feeding the fuel pump. Bulb pressurized no problem. Motor fired up no problem. Idled with no noticeable problem (the 200 HPDI is a bit of a rough idle as it goes to 4 cyl during idle). Into gear and up to 1300 rpm no real issue, but thought I noticed a little miss here and there. Shrugged it off as me being overly concerned. Putted the ¼ mi of no-wake at 6knts no real issue. Once out of the no-wake, I slowly throttled up. 2K, no prob. 2.5k, no prob. 2.8K and motor bogs. Pulled back throttle. Putted at 1300 rpm for another minute to think it over, and gave it another shot. Same issue – at about 2800 rpm, motor bogs down. The upside is that I now have an issue isolated at the motor – a place to start. My first guess is the filter below the fuel injector. That will be this weekend’s project. I am now thinking that I now have 2 issues. First is a clogged filter in the vapor canister (understand how that would have happened if you read my last post – bypassed the 10micron filter for a short time). The second is in the main tank and likely thinking it is the screen on the bottom of the fuel-pickup line and or (assuming it is inside the tank) the anti-siphon valve. It’s a 25 yo. tank and prolly has a bunch of crud in it that I am going to have to work through will its cleaned out and caught by the main 10micron filter. Thoughts or suggestions from here are welcome. Specifically, thoughts on how to attack the elbow at the tank. Thanks again for hanging in there with me on this one. Much appreciated. |
Re: Fueling/Motor problems - would appreciace inpu
From the pic it looks welded to me. Mine is screwed in and was VERY tight. The anti siphon is basically a ball inside the piece you're trying to unscrew. It would stop flow out of the tank if inverted. The VST tank contains the HP pump and yes, this screen can become clogged. It's not a bad job. I've done my OX66 a few times.
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Re: Fueling/Motor problems - would appreciace inpu
Well the plot thickens LOL - OK I wouldn't try that pickup either but your idea of switching the other is good.
Bypassing the filter a short time I'm sure didn't do anything, have you dumped the filter into something to check if its picking up any trash?? The Yamaha's do seem to have issues with the VST filter, as they mentioned on THT, you would be only one more of thousands. Frankly based on other THT posts that is probably the issue on the motor, sure sounds like all the others. I think they can be cleaned and see if the yami guys can help you re-use the O ring too - both filter and O ring are $30 ea. Do a search over there and on Florida sportsman - boating. I think FS gives better info. We have to have the motor running though - I don't think you even have an anti syphon valve - the vent seems good - I would blow back through the fuel line, that will clear any debris on the pickup at least for awhile to check it. If the tank has that much stuff in it you should find stuff in the filter too. first thing now would be do the VST and get it running on the 6 gal tank with no filter - that bulb might just have been bad though, I have never seen one suck flat though and its not the vent- not the anti syphon - at least we're elminating some stuff - down to pickup and filter on the boatside. I'll do a search on FS and see if I can come up with anything Ok did the search - good grief they have filters - here is just one that a guy is doing himself and seems helpful - I just did a search for VST filter in boating forum and and bunch comes up - you should probably do it yourself as there is too much. http://outdoorsbest.zeroforum.com/zerothread?id=788906 |
Re: Fueling/Motor problems - would appreciace input
this may seen stupid but you are using new gas not gas that has been sitting any time when i bought my boat it came with 80 gals of old gas that would run the engines good until they fully warmed up then they would "bog" down to about 1200rpm and they would't come back until next test day refilled with new fuel and a good dose of startron and all is well good luck
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Re: Fueling/Motor problems - would appreciace input
My pickup looked just like yours. It`s a welded threaded collar. I too was afraid. Use a little penetrating oil overnight. Mine backed out pretty easily after I put a little muscle to it. Don`t forget the anti-sieze. They should of used it when made and they look scary, but mine came right out. The other pickup is for twins.
VST`s are notorious on Yamis GFS |
Re: Fueling/Motor problems - would appreciace input
'01 engines weren't made for ethanol fuels, or at least I don't think they were. Talk to your mechanic friend who has experience with current fuel problems. You might be able to head off a more serious service bill now, while it is still running to some degree.
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Re: Fueling/Motor problems - would appreciace input
Quote:
Sandy what happened with the boat guy - I saw a comment by him but no details |
Re: Fueling/Motor problems - would appreciace input
Sandy what happened with the boat guy - I saw a comment by him but no details [/QUOTE] 32 ft cat vs small lawn. |
Re: Fueling/Motor problems - would appreciace input
thanks guys - I will hit the pickup with pb blaster sat am and then give it and the VST a try on sunday (provided I can get a hall pass both days....) Much appreciated.
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Re: Fueling/Motor problems - would appreciace input
I'll be watching this thread.....I have a very similar symptom with a carbed 115 premix yamaha. I replaced the fuel lines from fuel pump to pick up barb, new filter and connector to motor. Still the same.....I just don't understand the intermittent nature of the problem....but whatever yours is I'm going to fix on mine....so good luck!!!
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Re: Fueling/Motor problems - would appreciace input
What is "pb blaster"....???
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Re: Fueling/Motor problems - would appreciace input
super WD40. penetratrant as GFS suggested. Generally thought of as the best, but have to let it soak for a while for it to work fully.
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Re: Fueling/Motor problems - would appreciace input
The best penetrating oil I've ever found is Aero-Kroil. A co-worker that had a side business overhauling turbochargers swears it's the best and even got Pratt & Whitney to start using it on their development engines. Can order it from Eastwood; some good hardware stores may have it. Can also order direct . . . do a google search for Kroil.
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Re: Fueling/Motor problems - would appreciace inpu
Well - finally got a chance to try and give this another shot. After talking to a few people, the suggestion was to change the VST and the inline filter as well. Popped the cowl and started up at the clear bowl in front of the inline and VST. This is where fuel first comes into the motor.
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s...filters017.jpg Literally an inch of crud at the bottom of it and, in looking at the panel filter at the top of the bowl, the folds were almost packed with crud. The bowl came off fine, but trying to put it back in was a little tough. I have not had ethanol in the boat for long, but the clear bowl and or the o-ring at the top had already swelled a bit. Good trick i had heard was to throw it in the freezer for a bit. I did so while i worked on the other issues and when it came time to reassemble, it popped right back on. Fortunately a buddy of mine had a new panel filter so i replaced that as well in the process. I would recommend for those doing this maintenance so next was the inline filter. This one is kinda tricky and a bit a pain. http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s...filters025.jpg The picture is kinda small (stolen from ESD's thread) and i did not take any pict of our process (unfortunately). The key is the black collar that protrudes from the silver fitting. It along with the inline filter need to be pushed back towards the silver fitting, and with the black collar still pushed back towards the silver fitting, pull the inline away from the fitting and it should release. Its not completely intuitive but once its done you are like, oh, that is what i was supposed to do. So the VST was last and was probably the easiest. Cracked the screws at the top, released the drain at the bottom and collected the fuel. Unbolted the vapor canister from the head (watch out for those washers!) Cracked the canister (REALLY WATCH ALL THOSE LITTLE SCREWS!) Removed the gasket/o-ring and then the VST. It was not the same semi translucent color (more brown - same color as the gunk in the clear bowl.) VST takes a little thinking, but is overall not bad to pull and replace. Buttoned everything up and headed up to the fuel pickup. I had hit it with PB Blaster the day before and once it put the wrench on it and tapped the wrench just ever so slightly it spun off with very little resistance. No anti siphon valve in the elbow and no screen at the bottom of the tube. Back in it went with no-seize paste and fuel line back on. Dunked the boat, putted out of 6knt zone, leaned on her - 1800 RPM, no prob, 2000 RPM no prob, 2200 RPM no prob (this is where she was choking out on me) and up she went....WHEW, what a relief! Ran her for about 45 min and varying speeds and pulled her off plane and put her back on a bunch of times and no issues. Thanks guys for the suggestions and the moral support on this one. Hoping I have it licked at this point, but will wait to log some longer trips on her before i call it done. Man, dealing with motor issues is a real headache and is really stressful. Matt |
Re: Fueling/Motor problems - would appreciace input
I just went through allmost the same scenario.My pickup tube had screens in it for a filter I guess,I removed it and it was full of crap.I took a long screwdriver, pushed all the crap out.Put her in the river with a fresh fuel water sep.And a new inline filter by the engine and took 2 extra inlines with me.Had to change 1 inline filter in river and shes running great.
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Re: Fueling/Motor problems - would appreciace input
Glad it seems to have worked out - I still don't understand the bulb sucking flat though but as long as its running good
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Re: Fueling/Motor problems - would appreciace input
ESD - the only thing i can come up with is that the 10-micron filter trapped so much crud that it would not pass enough fuel and therefore let the bulb suck flat. Plan is to keep a couple new filters on the boat for a while.
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Re: Fueling/Motor problems - would appreciace inpu
ALWAYS carry spare filters. It can mean the difference between spending the night in your own bed or spending the night waiting for the Coasties.
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