odd crack in a 25 Seafari
 

Just returned from a 8 day Bahama trip(I'll post a trip description as soon as I get the pics from my diving buddy). On the way back (I think) the hull developed an odd crack (pics below). Conditions were 15-20 knots of wind behind us, seas 3-4 to sometimes 5 at the center of the Stream, running 23 knots. We slammed a few (very few) times launching off waves and coming down not quite on the keel, but it was nothing that any good hull would not tolerate just fine. The crack is short, but appears to be deep, with wispy glass fiber ends coming out. It does not look like an impact to me (other opinions?) and I wasn't aware of hitting anything. There is very little stress cracking around it and it seems to be right under one of the main stringers, a very strong part of the boat. There is no sign in the surrounding gelcoat that would indicate a previous repair. I can cut the bottom out of a storage compartment and get to the inside of the hull right at the crack, but haven't gotten that far yet.

Anybody seen anything like this? Any ideas as what caused it, what I may find when I open up the inside, or what is the best way to fix it? For sure, I'll have this professionally done, but would like to have a good background before I take it in.

Otherwise the 25 seafari is near flawless, truly a great Bahama cruiser.

Connor

http://i886.photobucket.com/albums/a...llcrack002.jpg
http://i886.photobucket.com/albums/a...llcrack001.jpg
http://i886.photobucket.com/albums/a...llcrack006.jpg

Re: odd crack in a 25 Seafari
 

I've had those cracks on all the sceptres ive had. I'm not sure as to why they happen it must be the way the inner hull meets the outer somewhere inside the cuddy. Even if you glassed the outside i don't think it would last long unless you got it from the inside as well.

Re: odd crack in a 25 Seafari
 

Ouch. Now I see what you were talking about. Since my boat is already tore apart I'll see if I can get a good look in that area and shoot you a couple pictures. Looks like a bad stress crack for sure. Looking at the running shot of your boat that crack is directly above where the V meets the water when underway.

strick

Re: odd crack in a 25 Seafari
 

My glass guy is swamped, so it will be awhile before this gets fixed.

Thanks for the replys.

I can't tell exactly, but much of the crack seems to be directly below one of the main stringers and definately not connected in any way to the inner hull liner. Can't quite envision how a crack shaped like this could develop.

Entourage, did the cracks you have seen occur right on a stringer? Where they short and vertical like this one?

Re: odd crack in a 25 Seafari
 

Just guessing here. Stringer end and hull in contact as to create a hard spot at just the right point? A couple of hard bounces and crack. Or just the opposite...stringer should of been just a little bit longer to take the flex out.

Just bring it down to the island and we can cut it open and fix her up ;)

Re: odd crack in a 25 Seafari
 

It looks like a hard spot to me as well but I don’t see how a foam filled stringer could do that. Perhaps the support of the cuddy pressing down on the hull close to that location could do it.
You need to open up the boat just above the crack for a good look and repair access. Start repair from the inside first, then you can go from the outside of the hull up to finish up the repair.


FellowShip

………………………….

Just for the Grins :D

Official 23’ SF Antique Classic SeaCraft Owner

Re: odd crack in a 25 Seafari
 

I'm betting the forward end of a stringer and possibly a b/head thrown in the mix...

Re: odd crack in a 25 Seafari
 

Yes they were vertical cracks. Exactly like the picture of yours shown. Had 3 sceptres and all three in the exact same spot on both sides. Not as bad as yours but i guess if left untouched long enough they would get that way.

Re: odd crack in a 25 Seafari
 

The really strange part is stringer placement. I can see the other side of the boat and it is the usual massive seacraft construction. The stringer goes well past where the crack is and there doesn't seem to be anything around that would create a hard spot or anything else that could provide the opportunity for such a crack. I guess I'll just have to wait until I can get the bottom out of the storage compartent and see exactly what the crack looks like from the inside.

For sure, there was no sign of any crack when I bought the boat 9 months ago.

Entourage, were your cracks right on the stringer?

Re: odd crack in a 25 Seafari
 

Connor,
To me, it looks like the hull flexed and put the chine/strake in compression causing it to buckle in the area of the crack. I took a look under the deck of my 25 yesterday afternoon. The stringer runs along the step in the hull and goes well forward of the location of your crack. The stringers are vertical, but because of the deep vee, the force acting on the hull will have a pronounced lateral component that the stringer may not support. The stringer is not in contact with the cabin liner, and there's no bulkhead between the cabin bulkhead and the anchor locker, so it has no lateral support that might help it resist the lateral component of slamming loads where the crack occurred. I'll check again, but I don't think the stringers in my 25 are foam filled. I think they would be considerably stiffer if they are foam filled. I'll try to post pics, but my DSL is down at home and I may not have internet access there for a couple days. strick will probably have his pics up first.
Dave

Re: odd crack in a 25 Seafari
 

These pictures are from the port side which is the opposite side of were Connors crack is. I would have had to cut out the bottom of the starboard storage compartment to get any pictures showing the complete stringer and hull were his crack is located. I'm assuming that the hull is configured the same on both sides.

Looking down from the cabin door. The stringer appears to run directly over the step/chine that is cracked.

http://www.casdvm.com/photos/25stringer/P7012576.JPG

The crack is about 24 inches up from the bottom of the keel which puts it somewhere close to where you can see the end of the tape measure.

http://www.casdvm.com/photos/25stringer/P7012574.JPG

In the picture above note were the stringer ends. The chine/step extends about 16 inches beyond the end of the stringer however the crack is definitely inside or close to the side the stringer were the end of the tape is located.

A couple more shots looking aft

http://www.casdvm.com/photos/25stringer/P7012577.JPG

http://www.casdvm.com/photos/25stringer/P7012573.JPG



strick

Re: odd crack in a 25 Seafari
 

You got it Strick. From what I can tell, most of the crack is directly under the stringer, with a little bit extending toward the keel past the stringer. Some kind of defect directly under the stringer or in the stringer/hull attachment?

Re: odd crack in a 25 Seafari
 

Connor,

I think Dave's right, it's a compressive failure. Those small fore & aft gel coat cracks up in the step radius may be the result of tensile/bending stress from flexing in the flat panel aft of the vertical crack. Maybe stringer wasn't well bonded to hull in that area; I've heard of some 23 Sceptre's having problems with loose stringers, so maybe this is a similar problem.

I cc'd you on an e-mail I sent to FiberglassOne and some aerospace engineer friends with a link to this thread, so check your e-mail. Dan has seen that type of failure many times, and said you will probably see a LOT of delamination on inside. I'm guessing you'll have to cut out the inside of the storage box under the bunk to get a look at it. If your glass guy is swamped, either he or Don Herman would be good guys to fix it if you felt like towing it over this way. Maybe we could get together while you're here . . . make a weekend out of it! Denny

Re: odd crack in a 25 Seafari
 

Thanks Bushwacker

Either of those guys would do a fantastic job, but Palm Beach is a Loooong way from Sarasota. Still, its worth thinking about, I want this done exactly right.

Re: odd crack in a 25 Seafari
 

Best Glass guy around on this coast is Kevin Horn at american boatworks in Tarpon. They do incredible work, and he standsa behind it. He did my transom, and several others I know of.
Pretty wild link showing some of his work. Tell him you know me from the website. The cool thing is he will make a cd of the repair of each of the steps at no charge if you want.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8s-6...feature=autofb

Re: odd crack in a 25 Seafari
 

On my 23, I had a stringer come unattached (poor workmanship). I had a couple of minor gelcoat cracks but nothing like this. If the stringer is attached in one spot, but not another, it will create a hardpoint where it becomes unattached. That would be my guess.

Re: odd crack in a 25 Seafari
 

Just a thought Connor, There is the possibility that
you may have struck an object while under way and
did not realize it at the time.
Those lateral stress marks in your pic make me
lean this way.
As thick as the glass is in our boats in the bottom
it is unlikely that there was any failure in the
stringer system. If the crack was close to a bulk head
that would make more sense...
Just my .02¢ worth on this.
At least you had a good time and she still got
you home safe and sound!!

See ya, Ken

Re: odd crack in a 25 Seafari
 

Thanks very much for all the input. You guys are something else!

Well, I think I know why and what happened. Thankfully it doesn't look too extensive. Boy, was I thankful.

I cut the bottom out of the stb storage container to access the area above the crack. At first look, all was perfect, but on closer inspection, I found (1)the crack is entirely under the stringer (2) a small area of broken fibers in the woven roving in the bend where it attaches the bottom of the stringer to hull, about 2 inches fwd of the crack (3) the stringers are not symmetrical. The port stringer looks like it was pushed up against the vertical part of the inside strake and glassed in place. That looks right and should make it very strong. The stb stringer is attached at least an inch inboard of that, which would create lots of space between strake, stringer, hull, etc and maybe weakness in the hull under the stringer. With the stringer slightly out of place, the strake is basicly unsupported. Assuming the stringer is hollow, I can see how a compression fracture might occur.
Looks like grind out the bad glass, attach the stringer to the hull more strongly and do something inside/underneath the stringer, not sure what. Fill it with poured foam maybe? Since the entire stringer can't be filled without taking the boat apart, would that create hard spots at the end of where the foam goes?

Any other suggestions?

Thanks again

O yeah, the aft end of my stringers are hollow. I can't tell about the forward sections.

Re: odd crack in a 25 Seafari
 

Connor,
Can you post pics from the inside?
Dave

Re: odd crack in a 25 Seafari
 

Be glad to, but the damage you can see is so subtle, I don't think it will show up on my camera. Do what I can.

I made some drawings, trying to conceptualize what the problem really is, and its pretty clear. Set the stringer off an inch or so inboard and the strake is very poorly supported.

Re: odd crack in a 25 Seafari
 

Don't know i never cut it up to see. The crack was about the size of 2 thumbnails and never got any worse.

Re: odd crack in a 25 Seafari
 

The stringers in my 25 are hollow. If the crack is inside the stringer then you are going to want to remove that portion of the stringer fix the glass underneath it and then re attach the stringer. Then make the necessary repairs on the out side of the boat.

strick

Re: odd crack in a 25 Seafari
 

Yeah, I don't expect to be able to see the damage, just want to see how the stringer is positioned.
Dave

Re: odd crack in a 25 Seafari
 

Epilogue:

Well, I cut away the stringer over the odd crack, had my glass guy repair it and very securely reattach stringer to hull, lots of extra glass, this thing should be bullet proof

Should be. . . . . I did another trip, 12 days to Hole in the Wall, Bahamas. Everything seemed fine, except for a a funny shudder in the hull that I mostly ignored. About December, I decided to inspect the whole thing carefully and, OH MY! Some tiny cracks on the outside where the repair was. On the inside, the stringer end was loose. Much more damage than before. the new glass was still together, but you could see damage down inside it. The new repair was glassed to the old tabbing that secured the stringer. The old tabbing was pulled loose from the hull for several feet inboard of the stringer and almost as much outboard. The stringer was just flapping around loose. Lucky I didn't sink. At that point, I knew it was something major. Glass work is not my thing, so I needed to learn fast. A panicked HELP!!! to Strick, Blue Heron and Bushwacker, who were super helpful, Thanks guys. Extra special thanks to Blue Heron, who coached me through the glassing process.

I stripped the boat, pulled the tanks, etc, and found the stb main stringer (the one that was breaking free in front) to be snapped clean off at the forward fuel tank bulkhead and some rot in all three bulkheads in the boat. Foam had been poured into the bottom of the hull and everywhere the foam touched the plywood, rot, and nowhere else. Boy do I hate foam. You could see where water had run across the top of the foam and onto the plywood. Foam was closed cell. There was a small amount of disintegrating balsa in the floors I took out to access the forward section of the stringer.. I was surprised, it felt solid.

Lots of head scratching at this point, trying to figure out why all this happened and what to do about it. Blue Heron nailed it, we think. The boat doesn't have enough bulkheads, the main stringers don't
go all the way to the deck or inner liner and the space between the two main stringers is wide. Make it worse, the forward third of the boat only has one set of stringers, the mains. It needs to have at least one additional forward bulkhead tied into the inner liner to stiffen the boat. Lateral stress from wave pounding flexes the hull up and in, eventually causing a problem. Looks like the lack of bulkheads allowed the whole forward part of the hull to flex upward, breaking the stringer at the first hard spot, the forward tank bulkhead. We suspect that Moesley's original design, which was to have a water ballast tank in the forward section, had to have had additional bulkheads or other stiffeners. Potter took all that out of the design and did not put anything in its place, so it is a very long stretch between bulkheads and no stiffening offered to the hull by bonding the stringers to the inner liner. Took almost 40 years, but it finally caught up with me. Ain't I lucky! Blue Heron's boat was showing some early signs of what looked like the same thing.

The repair:

My glass work is mostly too ugly to show, strong (I hope) but it ain't pretty. A few pics of the offending stringer and all the bulkheads just before I put the floors back in, will follow.

All the bad glass was ground out, cut the side of the stringer out, extended the stringer all the way to the forward bulkhead, then glassed the inside of the stringer to the hull, put the side back together, two layers of 1708 over the whole thing, three layers for tabbing and more on stress areas, filled both main stringers with 8 lb foam.

The three rotten bulkheads were cut out and replaced with 3/4 exterior grade plywood with 3 layers of 1708 for tabbing. I put in two new full bulkheads all the way across the hull and up to the inner liner, around and above the main stringer, done in two sections, so I could fit it into the boat, and then glassed together in the middle. One bulkhead exactly where the first crack appeared on the outside of the hull, a second where there is a vertical section of the inner liner between the bunks and the storage area. The bulkhead is epoxied and screwed to this vertical section. Both are glassed to the inner liner, but the latter should spread the upthrust load better. These bulkheads are very close together and there was still a long stretch back to the fuel tank bulkhead. Halfway between I put a half bulkhead between the main stringers, v shaped that extended up the hull to 6 inches up the main stringers. All of these new bulkheads were set on pads of two layers of 1708, 4 inches wide, with cabosil/epoxy putty to spread the load where the bulkhead meets the hull . Hopefully this will reduce the effect of the hard spots created by the bulkheads. Finally, I cut air circulation holes in the bulkheads and installed an additional low bulkhead midway between fore and aft fuel bulkheads below the tank deck to support it and provide replacement support to the hull for the foam I took out.

Decided that I wanted to check on all this work in a year or two, so I built a rim around all the deck holes and put the deck pieces back in with screws and silicone. Thankfully, oh so thankfully, the deck pieces fit back in perfectly, the hull had not shifted at all while all the bulkheads were out. I'll glass it back together after running it hard and checking to make sure all this worked.

Splashed the boat last weekend and it runs fine. Still putting cabinetry, seats, etc back together. Very lots to do before June Bahama trip, but I'm going to make it.

Word of caution for those redoing aluminum tanks. Mine were 10 years old, covered with some kind of epoxy paint and looked near perfect when I pulled them, just a tiny bit of light corrosion in a few spots. All the spots looked about the same. Figuring it was over kill, but just to be sure, I buffed them off and found two spots with deep pits. No problem with a little bit of epoxy and light cloth, but they were on the way to failure and fairly soon. Inspect your tanks very closely and make sure you have all the old corrosion gone so you can see how deep any pits are.

Choice of material led me to epoxy over polyester. I'm happy with the choice, but there was one problem. Epoxy is runny and I was using the slowest setting variety. On vertical surfaces, it would drain out of the cloth before it had a chance to set. Lots of air bubbles. The problem can probably be resolved with a faster resin, but I needed the time, so I tried mixing in a little bit of cabosil to thicken the resin. Worked like a charm, just slowed down the wetting out process a little, which was ok with me.

Every weekend for 6 months, a least 150 hours, 9 gallons of resin and hardener, 25 sq yards of 1708, gallons of cabosil,etc, etc. It all added roughly 160 lbs to the boat, most of it forward where it was needed. I took out maybe 40 lbs of heads, hoses, foam, etc that won't go back in.

Here is your chance guys. Make your Seacraft a true classic. Score an original Raritan Compact II, hand pump head with almost new macerater pump and holding tank. Free to the first true believer who gets here.

I know some of you guys actually enjoy this stuff and you have my deepest respect, but I sure hope I don't have to do this again. Still, its most perfect boat in existence for what I do. . . Guess I'd do it again if necessary.

http://i886.photobucket.com/albums/a...ercrack006.jpg

http://i886.photobucket.com/albums/a...ercrack007.jpg

http://i886.photobucket.com/albums/a...asswork002.jpg

http://i886.photobucket.com/albums/a...lrepair016.jpg

http://i886.photobucket.com/albums/a...lrepair012.jpg

Re: odd crack in a 25 Seafari
 

Connor,

Thanks for the EXCELLENT summary. I think you've nailed the root cause - if the stringers aren't stabilized with bulkheads to prevent lateral deflection, they'll tend to buckle and you'll definitely have cracking problems in the outer skin. Terry's 21 had similar problems where the PO just cut through a bulkhead, with no compensating reinforcement, to install a bigger fuel tank!

Good advice on the fuel tank too! My boat was only 3 years old when I got it, but fortunately I pulled the fuel tank right after I got it. Someone at the factory had evidently dropped a brass nut into the bilge before they installed the tank, and there was a nice deep pit where the bare aluminum tank was resting on that nut! It would have been leaking a couple of years later! I repaired it, painted the tank with epoxy, and it was still in good shape 31 years later when I pulled the tank to clean it out before I repowered.

At least SeaCraft didn't foam in the tank and provided a hatch so you can easily pull the tank for inspection. That ought to be high on the TO-DO list for anyone that buys one of these boats! And if someone subsequently foamed in the tank, get rid of that foam so it doesn't let water contact the tank all the time!

Re: odd crack in a 25 Seafari
 

Thanks Bushwacker. I've thanked the stars several times for the ease that Seacrafts can be taken apart, tanks, etc. I just hope we have got it right on the cause and my solution. I'll be posting an update in a year or so, after I inspect everything again.

Sounds like I should cut thru the storage bin under the starboard bunk and have a look at mine. It has been a trailer queen for about 10+ years, so I am hoping it is ok so far. The port side looks fine, of course.

A view inside the hull, under the port bunk facing rearward. Then forward and down into the vee, with the last being one compartment forward.

FishStretcher,
I don't see anything in any of those pics that would make me want to start cutting access holes. If you're concerned about the boat's structure, I would do what Connor suggested in your thread, pull the fuel tanks so you can check the bulkheads. I believe Connor had his stringer problem because his bulkheads were no longer supporting them.
Dave

4th photo down you can see where someone glassed over the old thru hole. I'd make sure that is sound as well. There is a lot of black in your bilge... Oil? or just dirt? That bulk head for the forward storage compartment looks a little rough on the bottom. May want to make sure that it is not rotten. Although it would be hard to get to that. There should be a drain hole on the bottom of that bulkhead? I'll have to check mine.

strick

In mine, the drain hole in the forward bulkhead was very small and easily plugged. I don't see one in yours at all, needs one. The bulkhead itself looks ok so far, might be a little wet, but no sign of structural problems. You can also access it from the forward hatch under the mattresses, much more access. You might take a battery drill and put a few small holes into the wood at the base of the bulkhead. That will tell you if any rot is present. Just seal'em good when you're done.

Ditto on cutting holes and pulling the tanks. You can get a very good look at the two main bulkheads in the boat. The aft fuel bulkhead is a high probability for rot. Also look very closely at the outside of the hull where the bulkheads meet the inside. Look for hairline cracks that suggest hull stress. If present, they will probably be parallel to the bulkhead.

Did you see any foam in the bottom of the hull under the bunks? Mine was near full and IMHO part of the problem.

I really wish I had gotten this boat before the blizzard. I was pulling ice out of the bilge- it was perhaps 3-4" up from the keel. The ice means standing water, which isn't good. Not much I can do about it now, I got out what I could- it will warm above freezing this week and hopefully drain.

There was no foam under the bunks on the port side. But there might have been- there looks like spray foam residue in there?

Also there is a blocked off thru-hull under the port bunk. It is pretty small. I think it needs attention. It is in the pictures where you can see the ice before I plucked most of it out. And you can see the patch for a larger thru-hull, probably from the head. It existed ~10 years ago, but isn't there now, so maybe it was glassed in during the '04 repower, and foam pulled out at that time.

The forward triangular compartment is full of liquid water. The compartment just aft of and below the anchor locker I wasn't sure what I was looking at, when I was in there, but it sure wasn't draining.

I know it has new(er) fuel tanks in it. I haven't pulled the hatch there.

It looks like I will plan on some new bulkheads. If not now, then next winter. Maybe I will grind away one skin and replace with coosa/nidacore or just laminate a doubler to one or both sides of each bulkhead. And then try to figure out how to add the other bulkheads.

Yep, that's spray foam residue. Looks like yours had foam in the bottom at one time. Almost for certain, it was removed because it was breaking up as the hull flexed. Means you should look very very close at your bulkheads for and aft of the fuel tanks. Also tabbing on the stringers, especially the stb side.

If it was me, I'd pull the tanks. If the bulkheads are ok, there are no hairlines in the hull near the stringers or bulkheads and you are not planning major cosmetic work on the cabin or deck, I'd stop there and just keep an eye on things. Seacrafts are so tough that any problems will develop slowly. There is also knowledge to be gained as Strick, Blue Heron and I put some time on our repairs.

If the bulkheads need replacing, you might as well go all the way, cut the necessary holes, put in the extra bulkheads, etc.

Just as important as the tanks are the fuel lines. You might want to make sure that he replaced those as well. Some of these old fuel fill lines if you just pull on them with one hand they come apart :)

strick

Re-reading this thread, and looking at scantling calculations from Dave Gerr's book, it looks like the boat might in fact be short a bulkhead. I need to check the calcs again, and maybe adjust for the large difference between LOA and DWL. The 25 seafari bow is very far from vertical.

I may install what he calls "floors", which to me would be half height bulkheads. I may also put foam core doublers on the fore and aft tank bulkheads. They were really gross with mildew, but the well coated ply seems intact except for some biscuits that have come apart.

I am installing new poly tanks anyways, so I plan to freshen up under the tanks, and double the bulkheads and build per the scantling rules. Then gel coat everything. Then I may remove the plywood bulkheads afterward. We will see. I am still working on a de-re construction plan that maintains boat shape.

I suspect I will want to add forward bulkheads/floors, but that will have to wait until the tank compartment gets finished. Probably a 2015 project. No jumping off 6 footers until then!

Strick was correct with respect to fuel lines. They were on their way out. Ethanol, I think.

FishStretcher,
As you know, Dave Gerr's scantling rules for fiberglass boats are based on a structural grid of low stringers and a combination of floors and bulkheads to tie it all together. The 25 Seafari seems to be the only Seacraft model that relies on structural bulkheads. And I think you're right that there should be one more. The unsupported hull panel width between the keel and the stringers under the cabin is pretty wide.

Here's a link to my thread where I evaluated what I thought was going on with Connor's boat and what I did with mine to avoid it:

http://www.classicseacraft.com/commu...=knife&page=10

Dave

**On every! Sceptre?,please tell me it wasn't several.**

Please excuse me for straying a bit on this thread,but after reading about connors dilemma and the issues with some others 23's,I'm starting to worry about my Tsunami. I'm realizing that I never really gave a lot of close inspections to the bulkheads.
It sounds stupid now that I didn't.
Just as bad is my inspection of the outer hull bottom.I checked it over pretty well a few years ago,but have to admit that other than a glance when it's on the trailer, I haven't paid a lot of attention to it.There are several layers of bottom paint on it so any minor crack might not show at a glance.

If the boat wasn't six and a half hours away,and not shrink wrapped I'd be checking it out now.Instead I guess I'll have to spend the next few months lying awake at night thinking about it.
As you can see in the pictures,I cut out the floor in the compartment forward of the fuel tank,so that I could access the inner hull bottom to clean out the 40 years of gook.After doing That, I figured why not just make a removable bottom in case I ever need to access the area again.
I made the cross members you see in the picture to give a bit of strength to that part of the liner,and to support the removable floor.They work fine to support the new plywood floor,but I'm not sure if they really are strong enough to give enough rigidity to the complete area.I can stand on it,but rarely do,the compartment is only used to store rods and reels.

It's a long compartment as the fuel tank is only 52 gallons.

From what you see,do you think it would be a good idea to glass in a couple bulkhead type crossmembers and then to permanantely glass in a new floor? or am I worrying too much?.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y7/easy2/IMG_1477.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y7/easy2/IMG_1478.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y7/easy2/IMG_1475.jpg

I think you're worrying too much. I don't believe the bulkheads in the Sceptres are structural like they are in the 25 Seafari, and the unsupported panel width between keel and stringer is less. The box stringers in the 23s seem to do fine.
Dave

Thanks blue,I'll sleep better tonight.I'll check it out in the spring.