23 vs Moesly 21 Ride
 

Just seeking opinions - which hull rides better? The Moesly SeaCraft 21 or one of the Potter 23' configurations?
My use would be to run to projected offshore fishing areas typically 10 to 40 miles then hunt trolling and drop live baits on drift or slow troll.

By better ride I consider soft landings and dry ride cutting into head seas, stability in a mixed up 2 to 3 foot chop as well as maneuverability and control in a following sea.

Also which is more stable at rest or if two or three guys are pulling and gaffing tuna on the same side?


;)

Re: 23 vs Moesly 21 Ride
 

How do YOU define better?

I believe the two hulls were designed with somewhat different purposes/uses in mind as the target performance criteria. My impression is that the 21' was designed for a little more top end in a prevailing sea open water race situation such as Miami to Nassau, while the 23' was designed to give up slightly on the top end for better all around recreational use.

I have the 23' Scepter with an I/O and simply love the performance. Better than average to excellent performace/ride in virtually all sea conditions plus better than average speed, but not the fastest in its class but still better than most. JMHO!

Re: 23 vs Moesly 21 Ride
 

Big Lew, what is your power on the I/O?

Re: 23 vs Moesly 21 Ride
 

Curretly it has 260 out of a 350 GM block; standard 4b carb. I will repower it if/when it goes back in the water with something 310+. I favor a carb because of on the water repair possibility, but may go with fuel injection. It depends on what is available then and how much. My WOT was in the high 30's. Not as much as I might like on a flat day, but more than enough for the Northeast nasties. :rolleyes:

Re: 23 vs Moesly 21 Ride
 

The 21 is very sharp forward, sharper than the 23 and even the 25 seafari. It should, confirmed by reputation, ride better into a head sea. Not to say that the 23 isn't very good. The 21 has very high sides forward, a higher CG than the 23 and will, almost certainly, be less stable in a cross sea. The 21's VDH hull shape is very similar to the 23in the aft sections, so it should not act much different when crowding weight on one side, either is better than a straight deep V or the seafari 25.

Re: 23 vs Moesly 21 Ride
 

Gillie, have you found a 21 you're not telling us about?! Don't be holdin' out on us!! :D

Based on comments from my friend that owned the 21' "Unohu" for over 25 years and made many Bahamas crossings with 23's, I'd say it's no contest - the 21 is definitely the softer riding boat, even though the 23 is generally considered to be very good! He said that every time the seas got over 3-4', the guys with the 23's would be calling him on the radio, "Begging for mercy", asking him to slow down. . . and he didn't run that fast! Even with the V-8, he only cruised at about 20 kts because that only required 9" of manifold vacuum (vs. a "max continuous" limit of 5"), so it was easy on the engine and gave best gas mileage. When he had the I-6 outdrives, he cruised at about 18 kts (regardless of sea state!) at about 7" vacuum. Most guys I know that rode in it, myself included, say its the softest riding boat of that size they'd ever ridden in, although some said that Bob, who was a pretty tough guy and an Army vet that served in both WWII and Korea, just had a higher "threshold of pain" than everyone else! :D

You have to remember that the 21 was Carl Moesly's original design, and I'm sure he designed it with the intent to race it, to see if it had any weak spots. He had already done that with the American Marc boats before he designed the 21 and started SeaCraft. The 23 is totally a Bill Potter design, not a stretch of the 21 as some folks think; it was never raced that I know of. Potter's background was basically that of a sales guy (who wrote some great ads!) and I don't believe he really understood the VDH design principles. The spray rail on the 23 would make it the drier of the 2 boats, but that's also in the direction to create more lift and a harder ride.

As for which one is more stable in a chop, I'd say that's a toss up. The vertical steps are much taller on the 21 which might tend to act as keels and damp roll, but I'm sure the 23 is much heavier so that might make it better. The difference in vertical CG between an I/O and O/B configuration might be more significant than the hull differences. Denny

Re: 23 vs Moesly 21 Ride
 

Lew, I think you're right about the design target, although I believe the 21 is also a much lighter boat. With the same 260 hp/350 Mercruiser, the "Unohu" would run low 40's with a light load. Bob's last (of 4!) engine was a 270 hp Volvo outdrive (same block but different cam and carb jetting), and he said it would hit about 50 mph with a light load!

Re: 23 vs Moesly 21 Ride
 

That's probably with a 3-4 knot current! :eek: :eek: :eek:

Re: 23 vs Moesly 21 Ride
 

Hands down; the 23'! Particulary if it is a I/O or inboard.

Re: 23 vs Moesly 21 Ride
 

I've ridden in both, and as good as the 23 is, I'd say the 21 is the softer (but wetter) riding of the two.

Also spoke with a friend who followed the 21 "Unohu" to West End, Grand Bahama in his 23' Sceptre on one trip with 20-25 mph East winds and 10-12' head seas! Took 'em 5 hrs to make the 60 nm run! The owner of that 23 had also made many dive trips on the "Unohu", and he agreed that the 21 rode a little softer but also said it was a lot wetter. He was bringing up the rear in a string of 5 boats on that particularly rough crosssing, with the Unohu leading. He said the seas were big enough that the Unohu would disappear when it went over a wave, and that you could tell how big the next wave was by the angle of the spray from the 21 when it punched into the next wave. If it was 45 degrees, you knew it wasn't too bad, but every so often it would look like a couple of fire hoses shooting straight up when that big high bow punched into a really big one!

He also said that the skipper of the "Unohu" had been seen driving across the Gulf Stream wearing a mask & snorkle! :D That makes sense to me and probably to anyone else who wears glasses all the time . . . if you wear a prescription mask, only one side of the lens will get wet when the spray hits, which is a big improvement!

Re: 23 vs Moesly 21 Ride
 

This is a quote from the MAN...Carl Moesly


Now if I could get mine done I could tell you what I thought :rolleyes:

Re: 23 vs Moesly 21 Ride
 

Thanks for the input guys,
seems we're still compromising. Softer ride = more wetness... didn't expect that. I'd rather take a few bumps than be saturated, I guess. 1 vote for Big Lew's opinion.

Mr Moesly's words are interesting. Clearly, he WOULD have done things differently, don't know what, but...

I'd love to see some pictures of Unohu's skipper in the mask and snorkel. Classic SeaCraft!

Is Brian still planning on popping some hulls of the salvaged 21?

-Gillie

Re: 23 vs Moesly 21 Ride
 

Gillie - I can see how you might not like getting wet if it's 50 degree water! On the other hand, if it's 85 degree water (and you're a diver already wearing a mask :D), and you're making a 10 hr run to the Abaco's thru 2-3' square waves on the Little Bahama Bank, trust me, even a SMALL improvement in ride is a VERY big deal! My boat seemed to think it was 3' longer after I added trim tabs! Denny

Re: 23 vs Moesly 21 Ride
 

And no one who has not made an 8+ hour run offshore in a powerboat has any idea!!!

I made a run to Chub Cay in the 80's with a friend in his 25' Robalo. After 3 hours out of St. Lucie, even though the seas were only 2-3', we pulled it back from 28-30 mph, to 18-20 mph. We felt like our spine had been compressed.

Here's the analaogy: Dropping 5 feet (3' seas equal 4'10" wave height) while standing at a center console loads up to a momentary 1.4-1.5 G's onto your spine, legs, and feet. For a 200 lb man, that's like somebody dropping an 80-100 lb sack of feed onto you shoulders for a second, before you shrug it off, then doing it all over again. Now do that every 3-4 seconds (15-20 times per minute, 900-1200 times per hour) for hours on end.

With a softer ride, you get a lower rate of deceleration, and less G-loading. Metaphorically speaking, you're still getting a sack of feed dumped on your shoulders, but it's a smaller, lighter sack.

That's why a soft ride is so important offshore.

Re: 23 vs Moesly 21 Ride
 

Carl said the same thing after he approached Johnny Morris about improving the original designs from the 60's. I guess some may not have enough vision to see that it can be better. Carl knows exactly what to do to make each vessel better depending on it's intended use although he never really had the chance to perfect his concepts. The man is a genius! Anyway, I'll take a 21 over a 23 any day...

Re: 23 vs Moesly 21 Ride
 

Amen to that Fr. Frank! I often felt a few inches shorter after some of those trips! :D

Re: 23 vs Moesly 21 Ride
 

The sack metaphor is right on target. You get so tired after 5 or 6 hours, much less 8, that you are too numb to see straight. Going from a 24 seabird to a 25 seafari is like going from a 100 lb sack to a 10 lb sack, just heavenly.

On wet boats, you can look at a 21 vs a 23 and see why the 21 would be wetter, but here is something I can't figure out. The 25 seafari is almost as sharp as the 21 and has little flare in the bow. It looks like a wet boat, yet is astonishingly dry, even in a pretty good crosswind.

Anybody have any idea why?

Re: 23 vs Moesly 21 Ride
 

Every one is saying the 21 is a wet boat...I think this is a relative term.

Hopefully 3rdday will check in.

If it is blowing like stink and you have a quartering wind I believe any boat will be wet.

My definition of wet is if you are head sea at cruising speed and you are getting wet...then you have a wet boat.
If you are busting waves any boat will be wet.

Re: 23 vs Moesly 21 Ride
 

If you're running fast enough the water won't be able to catch you...

Re: 23 vs Moesly 21 Ride
 

What's the saying?

Something like, there are two kinds of boats out there, wet boats and wet boats with enclosures.

Re: 23 vs Moesly 21 Ride
 

Exactly Right!!

Re: 23 vs Moesly 21 Ride
 

My Sceptre is VERY dry with out any enclosure. And exceptionally dry with the clear front curtains up and almost completely dry with the addtional side curtains up. :)

Re: 23 vs Moesly 21 Ride
 

Know what you mean, my 23SF is dry when there is no wind and the boat is sitting still........and it's not raining.

Re: 23 vs Moesly 21 Ride
 

Smart A$$! ;) ;) ;)

We love our Scepters now, don't we!

Re: 23 vs Moesly 21 Ride
 

And it`s Tuesday and raining, and I can`t get up.
GFS

Re: 23 vs Moesly 21 Ride
 

GFS,

Responding to your post above would be just tooooo easy!

;) ;) ;)

Re: 23 vs Moesly 21 Ride
 

Yep......IT would be way too easy.

Re: 23 vs Moesly 21 Ride
 

Good one, Don!

Re: 23 vs Moesly 21 Ride
 

Connor, maybe you were just running fast enough to outrun the spray! :D When I get wet on my boat, I'm usually running too slow!

Seriously, looking at the post Terry made showing the overlay of the 21 & 25 hull sections, the 25 appears to have a flat/spray rail molded into the chine that isn't there on the 21, so that might explain the drier ride on the 25. Moesly also added a narrow flat at the chine when he modified the 19 mold to create the 20, so that was a tweak he had added earlier. I can e-mail you that file if you want it. Denny

Re: 23 vs Moesly 21 Ride
 

I've reconsidered this and have decided the soft riding 21 is a better boat for me. When Fr Frank mentioned the G factor I thought of my last 8+ hr each way ride in snotty conditions in search of tuna.

The fishing was great, a Mexican flag jig strike from Striped Marlin at dawn, followed by small yellowfin, a pair of nice yellowtails on bait, then some albacore. After boxing the area for about another hour, the sun came out and so did some nice dorado, and finally some 30# bft on the run home. Pretty dry except for all the blood on the deck.

The ensuing weeks were hell. 9 weeks with barely tolerable sciatic nerve pain result of a long run in a Parker 25 pilot house. Love my Seafari.

Yeah, cold and wet is uncomfortable but it passes quickly. Lower back pain makes even great fishing a chore.

That being said I'll trade a Seavette project for a 21 project. Thanks for your help in this most difficult decision - even you Sandman :D :D :D

Re: 23 vs Moesly 21 Ride
 

I AIN'T TRADING... :cool: :D

Re: 23 vs Moesly 21 Ride
 

Yeah,
I tossed out more cookies than Famous Amos at the home run derby.

Re: 23 vs Moesly 21 Ride
 

:cool: :cool: :cool: ;)