Twin Etec 115's for a 23'?
 

Does anyone have twin Etec 115's on a 23'? I'm thinking that is the route I would like to go and I'm curious about performance and fuel economy.

I currently have twin 1994 140hp Johnsons on the back of my 23' Savage. I bought them new 16 years ago and have been very happy with them. I run 14.5x19 props and I can plane on a single engine and cruise 18 knots with the boat fairly loaded (no trim tabs). A number of times over the years, I have left the dock with only one engine running, the mission continued!

So, I have this theory that twin engines may be less expensive that a single engine in the long run. Reason being, you are not as inclined to get rid of it due to reliability concerns. When I priced two 115 Etecs vs. a 225 Etec, they are real close in price with the 115s being less than $2k more rigged/instrumented.

I'm curious if I could plane on one Etec 115? Being 2 stroke engines and comparing them with my old 140hp loopers, I think there is a chance.

I currently get about 1.1 mpg running them at 3800-4000 rpm. How much would I expect that to improve? Would it be more or less than 3 mpg?

Any thoughts or comparisons with similar setups would be appreciated.

Re: Twin Etec 115's for a 23'?
 

Skip & Carla are planning to go that route with their 21! Their boat was owned by Johnson-Kirby, a Miami dealer for the Homelite 4-stroke outboard motors in the 60's. Check out No. 26 on the home page of Carla's web site! Johnson-Kirby ran it in the offshore powerboat races with twin 55 hp Homelite/Bearcat motors! :eek: Carla may be able to confirm, but as far as I know, they won their class, since I think they were the only guys running 4-stroke outboards!

Although the 21 is a little lighter than the 23 (check the specs on Moesly SeaCraft site), it's the worlds BIGGEST 21 footer! If they could race a 21 with 110 hp with all the fuel they carried (300 gallons?), I would think you would have no problem with 230 hp if you didn't load it down too much. In fact I believe Fr. Frank has said he's rigged 23's new with twin 115's and maybe even twin 85's! However you might need a special prop to plane on 1 engine, something like a 13 3/4 x 15p. What sort of revs do you turn with the 19" prop? I'd think it would be lugging the motor down pretty bad, especially if trying to plane on one engine.

Re: Twin Etec 115's for a 23'?
 

lets see some pictures of your savage

Re: Twin Etec 115's for a 23'?
 

I normally don't post in this section as I'm not a geek on this stuff, but ...
#26 did win her class (we don't have to mention it was the only one in her class)
More impressive was the twin 55's performed very well on the 21 in offshore conditions.
A single Etec 115hp pushes our 19' bowrider 38mph with normal load.
We plan twin 115hp for our 21, #26. Advantages, like you said, a back up engine ... also mounting apart on transom will give less draft and better stability. Not yet proven, but like Bushwacker stated, a different prop and should plane the 21' on one engine.
We are pleased with our 3 yr old Etec.

Re: Twin Etec 115's for a 23'?
 

I like your idea but I don't think 115 would be enough 130 maybe I have twin 130 loopers never tried to go on one but I have limped home on one with bad gas a couple times one of them wouldnt run on the crap that came with the boat but the other did :D what would be the cost and weight difference with the 130's but the new etecs are strong so who knows!!

Re: Twin Etec 115's for a 23'?
 

Thanks for the information. Yes, the 130's may be the right motors. They are only 15lbs more than the 115's, I'm not sure about the cost difference.

I turn 6000rpm WOT with my 19" props. Years ago, a buddy of mine that worked at OMC brought me some 4 bladed 15x21 props to try out and they were incredible. I got the same performance as my 19" props at 10% less RPMs. I could get up on 1 engine too. I beleive 10% less RPM translates into 10% less fuel. That would have pushed me to a whopping 1.2 MPG instead of 1.1 MPG. The props were pretty expensive but would be a great consideration.

I did find this Twin 115 Etec performance paper:
Etec twin performace stats


It is a bigger aluminum hull, I'm not sure how that translates to a seacraft hull but 3.1 MPG sounds good.

Here is a picture:

http://home.comcast.net/~shbarbor/pw...rage_small.JPG

Another:
http://home.comcast.net/~shbarbor/pw...mity_small.JPG

Re: Twin Etec 115's for a 23'?
 

Those sound like some pretty good props you're running! What brand/model are they? I'm running a 15x15 PowerTech that seems to work pretty well, but I'm always looking for something better!

FYI - your link to the BRP site has an extra http// in the address; it works if you remove that. That aluminum boat might be similar weight but it has a little more beam than your 23, so that would make it plane a little easier if all other variables were the same. Deadrise is the big variable that I wasn't able to find any info on.

One neat feature of the E-Tec's is the incredible mileage they get (better than any 4-stroke) when running at hull speed, where they're in the lean burn mode. If you ever run short of fuel and are worried about range, all you have to do is slow down to hull speed to get a huge increase in range! That's a significant safety factor if you ever get caught out in really rough conditions where you have to drop off plane! I know that's hard to imagine in a SeaCraft, but every boat has it's limits! :D

Re: Twin Etec 115's for a 23'?
 

This is just my own opinion.

Why do you need twins?

Double the money double the service double the trouble.

I know every one says safety factor...but do you know that people who cruise around the world in 40 foot blue water boats only have one engine.

Normally twins or triples are for boats that need horsepower that they can't get out of a single.

I would say in the "old" days when out boards weren't that reliable the twin thing had a safety factor, now a days I think that argument is nil.

This just my take on the whole thing. :D :D :D

Re: Twin Etec 115's for a 23'?
 

I did think a lot about single vs. twin. Should I get 230hp in 2 motors or 225hp in one motor? And I think I want 2, here are some reasons I want to consider twins:

1) Initial purchasing cost is not that much more in the specific Etec case (not sure of other makes).

2) I've had my 1994 twins for 16 years. I think I would have replaced a single engine by now. So I am really getting my moneys worth. I've swapped parts from one to the other to troubleshoot over the years, this helps with maintenance costs and I'm deferring my initial costs so in my opinion there is some savings here.

3) This is a personal one but I use the boat exclusively in the Florida Keys where it is shallow. A single engine would reduce my draft by probably more that 6" because it would be in the middle of the V compared to twins hanging up off the bottom of the V.

4) Maneuverability in marinas and canal systems with twins is much easier.

5) Counter-rotating improves the ride in rough water because the single prop will walk the transom slightly to a side as the hull comes out of the water.

The cons I see in the twins are the higher maintenance costs and the extra weight.

I'm not sure the fuel for 1 motor is more than 2 motors? In the performance reports I read on the Etecs both are real close to 3 mpg (twin 115's vs. a single 225). You have 8 smaller cylinders being fed fuel compared to 6 larger cylinders... More drag with 2 engines... this is a hard one.

This is what makes this a great forum, and I appreciate all the input!!!

About my prop make, I got them from the OMC dealer when my engines were bought and I think they are Vipers circa 1994. The dealer had put 15X21's on to start with but I could not plane on 1. It was a luxury to try the props until I liked specific ones.

Re: Twin Etec 115's for a 23'?
 

Yes sir, I liked the picture of your boat with the old RR bridge/Overseas Highway in the background. :)

Re: Twin Etec 115's for a 23'?
 

Yes, ditto on DonV's comment. Nice pics of a really ideal fishing rig. Looks like you're pretty good at R & R, too. Really like those Charger colors... :D

Like Island Trader, I would typically favor a modern single over twins but you make some interesting points based on your shallow water and maneuverability needs. Like the part swapping bit, too.

I hope you'll post some performance #'s when you get re-powered.

Re: Twin Etec 115's for a 23'?
 

Go with twins. Compare the fuel consumption of the 115 and 130 Etecs.
The comment about 40' bluewater boats having only one engine is disingenous: Most also have sails. Those that don't, have diesels.

Re: Twin Etec 115's for a 23'?
 

Learn how to spell a big word before you use it. I was just giving my opinion so I hardly think I was being disingenuous.

Sorry I should have said the Blue water power boats...still only one engine and being a diesel has no bearing on being reliable...longevity yes.

Re: Twin Etec 115's for a 23'?
 

Pardon my poor typing skills. I didn't use the word in a pejorative sense.

In addition to "(1)lacking in candor, deliberately misleading;" my 1877 Webster's defines Disingenuous as also meaning "(2)unaware or uninformed; naive; ignorant; (3)to speak from ignorance; (4) to omit pertinent information, either willfully or inadvertently"

It was the last meaning I intended. If I offended you, please forgive me, I certainly did not mean to do so.

Re: Twin Etec 115's for a 23'?
 

That never crossed my mind, however I must admit those "powder blue jerseys" and especially the lightning bolts on the helmets were my favorite football uniforms when I was a kid....a long, long time ago, oh yeah, for those too young to remember back in the AFL days.

Re: Twin Etec 115's for a 23'?
 

Glad to see you did not sell her.I talked to you down around big pine key about 4 yrs ago I had the bracketed sceptre with the twin 250's.I switched to 150 optis and
now I get 3mpg or better at cruse the boat would not get
on top with one 250 shut down but it will with the 150's

Re: Twin Etec 115's for a 23'?
 

I was reading on another list and saw where a guy with an 1985 23' Chris Craft Scorpion WA is running twin '05 115 Etecs, and claims 3.3 mpg at 24 mph & 3800 rpms with 19" pitch props. He said he has to change the prop to get up on plane with one motor, though, changing from a 19" to a 15". Nothing on what kind of props, though, or on what his WOT speed is.
I put the data above plus the 115 Etec gear ratio and calculated slip into a prop calculator and came up with 39 mph at 6000 rpms.

This morning in Destin I saw a early 20' Seacraft SF with the wide transom cutout rigged with twin brand new 60hp Mercury 4-strokes. The boat looked good. It was in front of me trailering west on US 98, and had a Mississippi plate on the trailer.

Re: Twin Etec 115's for a 23'?
 

I wanted twins for all the reasons you have listed but still ended up putting a single 250 on my 23 Contender due to the lower cost.
It had a 2005 225 opti on it and I replaced it with a 2008 250 Yamaha HPDI (18 hours) and I have seen a great improvement in economy and speed.
Next repower I will look into twin's though as I still like to have backup when on the water.

Re: Twin Etec 115's for a 23'?
 

Thanks Fr. Frank, the 23' Chris Craft performance is great information. My current thoughts are the Etec 130hp motors may be the best option. They are 15lbs more weight each but have the possibility of getting up one one without a prop change.

Re: Twin Etec 115's for a 23'?
 

I have a pair of 150 etecs on my 23 center console and sometime think I need a pair of 175's or 200's, the boat goes great with the 150's
I would think IMHO that anything smaller would not do so well. with 4 blade props and a little trim I can plane at 18 knts. but when things are flat at 4100 rpm I am cruising at 30 knts and getting a little better than 2mpg.
your boat looks like it has more weight than my center console and I think your performance will suffer a lot , putting too much strain on the smaller engines and decreased life.

Re: Twin Etec 115's for a 23'?
 

I have a 23 CC with an enclosed transom and bracket. The motors are 2001 115 Suzuki's. They cost about 7 grand each back then and are only slightly more now. The block is tried and true.

The boat is perfectly matched. I can stay on plane down to 15kts. At 4000 rpm's I run 25kts and burn 10.5 gph for 2.8mpg. A fast cruise of 4600 gets me to 31-32kts and WOT I am at 39.5kts and that's with a radar arch and bimini.
I run 24" Stiletto props and my max rpm is around 5950.

These motors are a little heavy at 426lbs each. I believe 115 etec's are about 360 but don't quote me. If one of my motors blew up I'd just buy another one. Part of me would like a single Suzi 300 though but I cannot justify the 20 grand.

Re: Twin Etec 115's for a 23'?
 

thedog and Briguy, thanks for the great info.

The weight with the v6 engines starts to be a problem for me. The 150hp Etecs weigh 433lbs and that would really put my transom down. My 1994 140hp Johnsons weigh 374lbs and at anchor, fishing water comes over into the live well (which I do not use) and really weights the boat down.

The 115hp Etecs are 390lbs, the 130 Etec is 405 lbs.

The 115 Suzuki performance and initial costs sounds very good. I assume they are 4 strokes and the bracket seems like the best set up that keeps the water from coming into the boat. The $7K price times 2 vs. the $20K price for the single large engine is what I saw with the Etec pricing. I think my performance numbers with my 140's are very comparable with the 115 Suzuki's (except for the mpg, I get 1.1mpg compared to the 2.8mpg).

I have always put my boat on a plane and ran it 2-300 rpm above what it takes to keep it there. I'm going to evaluate it at the different throttle ranges like are being stated so I can compare.

Re: Twin Etec 115's for a 23'?
 

Also remember the Suzuki can spin a bigger prop so you may have more options to get it running right with 115's.

Re: Twin Etec 115's for a 23'?
 

correct lower gear ratios on zukes, I was impressed with Bryan's boat and a bit surprised

Re: Twin Etec 115's for a 23'?
 

I will give an answer on each point, I am familar with the keys and the boat as I had a 23 Sceptre that I switched from twin 150 Mercs to a V8 Rude 275.

1. check the 130's I don't think you would be happy in any seas with driveability, that hull is a high performance hull and it does like HP - I bet you not will plane a 23 w/115HP. I'm surprised you can with a 140 and 19" props

2. This will not be like your 140's - you can't work on these things - they just aren't as simple as the old days - honest. - It was easy - carbs, spark,fuel pump no more - 3 fuel pumps, modules, wires, hoses everywhere LOL and I only have EFI not DFI.
- motors depreciate, your hull will not - 2 motors depreciating vs 1

3. I think negligable - a 225 or 250 doesn't weigh 800lbs - and you have trim, my hull bumps first, when I'm real skinny

4 agreed, twins are so sweet in close - but you could get the hang of it, not that bad

5 Disagree, I had twins - the single rode like I bought a new boat, hull was much more responsive to trim and rode higher on the chines - it felt nimble like a 20 you really could drive it in seas - it was an amazing difference

6. The maintainence will be minimal for good while, other than filters and cables - you will use more oil and fuel. The 2 smaller motors will still use more than 1 of equal HP.

In closing, these new motors are highly reliable- in most cases, everything breaks but they are a far cry from 20 yrs ago - especially the Etec's. With a single I truely think you could see almost 4mpg at cruise as I have seen reported for the V6.

The biggest factor after 16 yrs - we didn't have SEA TOW for $150 a yr, honest they come right out and drag your azz home faster than 1 motor would run you. So call them, fish some, have a beer they will be there before you know it. I used them for the first time this year, I had them and it still was kinda scary the first time - no worries anymore. The first time they had to come 20mi up Tampa Bay and thats how long it took him - I fished.

Great boat always wondered way more people didn't buy them, although they came late but I thought it was perfect, but CC's were the rage.

good luck whatever you decide, it can't be a bad decision