Real world #'s on a 20' CC with a 140 4S Suzuki?
 

Hey guys, I know a few of you have a 20' Seacraft CC with a 140 4S, Zuke. I'm looking at that motor, and the Etec. What #'s are you getting? Did you raise the deck? Any water coming in the scuppers? I'm planning on raising the deck 1.5" in mine.

Thanks!

Re: Real world #'s on a 20' CC with a 140 4S Suzuki?
 

20' SF on a non flotation bracket, Suz 140 4s. I raised my deck 2.5 inches and it's self bailing with lite loads/fuel. If I fish four grown men and a full tank or just have a full load in the back of the boat I still get some water on deck.

I am replacing the scuppers from flappers to TH Marine ping pong balls to cut down on the flow.

Performance wise, I've seen 42mph lite, lite, lite once! Most times I am between 36-39mph with a normal or heavy load. My 40 gals of gas lasts forever!!

If I was going to re-power I would go 175 and would also like a flotation bracket. Can't have too much power and at rest the flotation would be nice.

All that said, only once did I truly need more power when I was caught with a heavy load, four guys, lots of fish/ice and terrible weather that came out of nowhere. We were safe but I should would have liked to have more power when climbing the back of a beast.

SOS

Re: Real world #'s on a 20' CC with a 140 4S Suzuki?
 

GREAT info SOS, thanks.

My only concern with the 175 is the extra 70lbs.

I haven't thought about a bracket, hmmm.

I was thinking about only raising the deck 1.5" sounds like I need to increase that.

Where do your scuppers drain? Out the back or the sides?

Thanks!

Re: Real world #'s on a 20' CC with a 140 4S Suzuki?
 

Excellent question and the same one I had about 5 years ago! I put together a spreadsheet comparing all the motors in that size class which I can send you if you PM me with an e-mail address.

I considered the Zuke 140 because it's the lightest of the 4 strokes but ended up going with the 150 E-TEC (actually 165 hp @ prop) because of it's same weight with more displacement and mid-range torque and the much lower maintenance cost. Did not consider the 150 Yam, Honda or 150/175 Zuke because if you compare wet weight and include the cowling, they're almost 500 lb motors, which is WAY TOO MUCH for a boat designed for motors of about 300 lbs! Have made several long trips with very heavy loads (approx 3900 lbs total) and I'm glad I went with the stronger motor. Have had zero problems with it in over 330 hrs/5 years and it's only been to the dealer once for the 3 year service, although I do change the gear oil annually. I can cruise at 30 kts at a little over 4000 rpm and at that speed it's quieter than all the 4 strokes because it doesn't have to be wound up as much. Although I have seen 49.5 mph (GPS) with full fuel but a light load and the top down with a 14 1/8"x20" 4B SS Michigan prop, max speed is not a big deal for me. Easy low speed planing to handle rough conditions with heavy loads is my main priority. I normally run a 15x15 4B SS PowerTech prop which has an awesome hole shot that pops the boat on plane easily with max load at about 40% throttle (Throttle Position sensor reading on I-Command gage. Full throttle will nearly throw you out of the boat with a light load!) Max speed with this prop is about 39 mph with max load and both the Bimini and sun tops up. Optimum cruise per I-Command gage (fuel flow from ECM, GPS spedo) is about 37-3800 rpm at 27-28 mph at about 4 mpg with a heavy load and about 5 mpg with a light load and the higher pitch prop. The E-TECs run very lean below 2000 rpm, so mileage at hull speed (~5 mph) is around 10 mpg. Took a 700 mile trip last spring carrying a very heavy load, often cruising at higher than optimum speed and averaged 4.35 mpg for entire trip. On local trips with less load and cruising at optimum speed I typically average a bit over 5 mpg overall. I seem to use 1 gal of XD-100 full synthetic oil @ $35/gal for about 150 gallons of gas, so I only have to buy oil once or twice a year. Still not sure I have the optimum prop and I may be able to raise the motor a little more, but these are the performance numbers I'm currently getting.

Min planing speed, which is the most noticeable problem on these boats when running a heavy motor, is about 12 kts, which is the same as it was with the old 300 lb motor on the transom, but it was about 18 kts before I went to a 4B prop! You'll definitely need a good stern lifting 4B prop to do that!

With the Hermco bracket, static waterline is about 1" higher than it was with a 300 lb V-4 on the transom; boat is still self bailing at the dock, but I normally run with the plugs in or use the vortex check valve plugs if diving. Boat is original '72 configuration. Potter raised the deck 1-2" in the Seafari's about 73-74, but don't know about the CC's, as they don't have much gunnel height to start with and raising the deck makes that worse. (The recessed "cup" where the scuppers live is about 1" deep; it's 2-3" deep on the later models with raised deck.) However the Seafari is also better balanced than the cc to begin with (less stern heavy), so a cc would probably sit a little lower in the stern.

Re: Real world #'s on a 20' CC with a 140 4S Suzuki?
 

An etec would not be a bad option, I like four strokes but the etecs are solid by all accounts and 165HP at the prop sure sounds nice. I hear the Suzy 140 is really around 130, I have no facts to substantiate that but rumor says...

My scuppers drain out the back, I have three, one center and two sides. I'd raise the deck more, but as pointed out there is a balance with the low freeboard already. :)

I like the closed transom and bracket personally. I love these boats!!

Good luck!
SOS

Re: Real world #'s on a 20' CC with a 140 4S Suzuki?
 

[QUOTE]
That sucks! I was thinking about that the other day and was going to try and find out what the hp was at the prop! I was kinda getting excited to find out how much 'more' hp I had. :mad: :D

Re: Real world #'s on a 20' CC with a 140 4S Suzuki?
 

Great replies guys, thanks so much!

I see the Etec is more power, less moving parts and lighter. Unfortunately my wallet would be lighter by about $1,500 if I go with that. Have to check out the warranties on the two, it may be worthwhile spending the extra $. The numbers you are posting are VERY impressive, I think the etec may be worth the extra $.

If I were to run the scuppers out the transom, I would have to go through the livewell, and dry storage. Does anyone see an issue with them going out either side?



I really appreciate the feedback so far guys.

Re: Real world #'s on a 20' CC with a 140 4S Suzuki?
 

1971 20'
140 Suzuki
75 gallon fuel tank
deck raised 2.5"
WOT with full tank of fuel 41-42mph

in gallery - "Mark's 1971 20"

Re: Real world #'s on a 20' CC with a 140 4S Suzuki?
 

Take a careful look at maintenance costs on the 4 stroke, because you could easily spend that $1500 "savings" on the required 4S maintenance in the first couple of years! Ship Shape TV recently did a comparison between the E-TEC and Zuke maintenance requirements. In the first 3 years where you spend ZERO on the E-TEC, the dealer quoted well over $2000 in maintenance costs for the 4-stroke! They also looked at Yamaha, which had similar or even higher costs. I'd be asking how much of that maintenance you could do yourself without voiding the warranty!

Speaking of warranties, when the E-TECs first came out, they had a 7 year warranty, the first 3 of which were with BRP, and the last 4 with a 3rd party outfit. I understand the current extended warranties are now direct with BRP. They have a great reputation for handling warranty claims, so I would consider that an improvement over the 3rd party deal, although I've had no personal experience with either one.

Re: Real world #'s on a 20' CC with a 140 4S Suzuki?
 

When etech first came out they had huge issues with cold temps and sticky oil. More than a few blew up. They had a great reputation for honoring warranties compared to OMC, but not too many 4s are known to blow up with catastrophic block failures the way etechs or HPDIs did.

I am going to have to call shenanigans on this... the suzi, yami, and honda maintenance costs are no where near what this guy is posting. He has been all over the site throwing up sort of silly numbers about ETEC versus japanese 4 strokes... makes me wonder if he is on the payroll or something.

Go look at the miami show. Go look at what is hanging off of 90% of the legit boat brands that are not owned by engine manufacturers... all yami. And the guys who repower tend to do suzi's for good reason.

The bottom line is that you can't go wrong with a 4s or a ficht I mean etec... they are all great engines. Anyone who claims any one of these new engines is way better than any other is any either on the payroll or... go check your local dealer network, buy the cheapest best thing you can. I personally would do a TLDI/Opti over an etech/HPDI based on what happens if you kink your fuel lines, and I would do a DF140 over anything except maybe a TLDI 115.

DF140 is a proven motor, even with all of the plastic parts inside. I guess my point is that a new engine, 4s, high pressure or low pressure 2s, porsche turbo charged, whatever, they are all great. DF140 is just a wee bit better than the rest and has the record to prove it.

Re: Real world #'s on a 20' CC with a 140 4S Suzuki?
 

I personally know someone who was 3' from an E-Tec that blew up with flames everywhere. I'm not that brave anymore.

The only flames I've experienced was when Capt. Chuck....wait, that was another incident altogether, nevermind [img]/forum/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Real world #'s on a 20' CC with a 140 4S Suzuki?
 

Denny.....you been holding back on us????? You've been making the big bucks all this time from BRP and did not even tell us!!!! I'm thinking a round on you at the gathering in June!!! I'm kinda fond of single malt scotch.

Re: Real world #'s on a 20' CC with a 140 4S Suzuki?
 

Mark, if those #'s are 100% accurate, that seals the deal for me. I'll go with the Suzuki.

My neighbor the engineer has a twin vee with twin Zuke 140 4S that have been in tip top shape for years. I know he's done all the maintenance on his( Maybe not adjusting the valves) and is chomping at the bit to show me everything that needs to be done..

Thanks again guys, this is a great site.

Re: Real world #'s on a 20' CC with a 140 4S Suzuki?
 

PM me and I will email you the DF140 manuals I have collected thus far.

Re: Real world #'s on a 20' CC with a 140 4S Suzuki?
 

KenB - “this guy” is a licensed Professional Engineer that has learned in 45 years of mechanical engineering practice that it is not wise to post ANYTHING that I have not thoroughly researched or had personal experience with. I am NOT on anyone’s payroll and I resent the implication that I’m an irresponsible salesman – I am simply a very satisfied owner. I can substantiate all of the “silly numbers” on fuel/oil consumption and speeds with fuel used and GPS records from my log book and Excel spreadsheets if anyone cares to PM me with an e-mail address. When I was trying to make a repower decision 5 years ago, I had the same questions that many other forum members currently have. The forum member was requesting real world numbers and that’s what I provided. I was trained to make decisions based on facts, not on hearsay and 2nd, 3rd or 4th hand info, and I respect his request for the facts. I felt that other forum members might be interested in what I learned from several years of intensive research on the subject. The forum members who know me well would tell you that, when I am about to spend big $ on something, I am notorious for literally “beating it to death” and being a royal PIA when it comes to research and asking questions of the factory engineers at the annual Miami Boat Show!

I believe the maintenance cost is a valid issue that merits discussion, because on the surface it simply looks like a scheme for increasing dealer profits. I really wonder how many folks literally follow the recommendations? I had TiVo’d the Shipshape TV Episode on engine maintenance so reviewed it again today to make sure I got it right. (It aired here on 3/21/11) Griviskes interviewed the service manager at the dealer here that I was considering buying a Zuke from. (I notice BRP is now one of his sponsors, so one could argue that he's not exactly unbiased!) Here’s what the service manager quoted on the Suzuki Service Manual Maintenance Requirements: 20 hr service (or 1 Mo.), $300; 50 hr service (or 3 Mo.), $300; 100 hr/1 yr service, $600-650; Total for 3 years: $2400, minimum. Was $2475 for Yamaha. Seems like a lot for what are basically oil changes and greasing a few fittings. I paid $661 for the 3 yr service on the E-TEC, which included water pump change, 2 new thermostats, a poppet valve, and gear oil change. The Albury Boats guy on the show said these services had to be done at dealer or it would void warranty, but I don’t know why you couldn’t do that yourself if you could prove you did it. Car warranties don’t required dealer oil changes. If any owners here know the true story on this issue, I'm sure many of the forum folks would like to know! At 500 hrs, a valve lash check is required for $800. If adjustments are needed that’s more $. I can see where you’d lose some performance it it opened up but I wouldn’t think bucket tappets with shims would change that much in 500 hrs. The old Jags had that setup and I don't recall them requiring checks that often.

Like most folks considering a repower, I initially figured that 4-strokes were the only way to go and I had been watching their development for several years. I initially considered the Zuke 115 and then the 140 and I was impressed by their attention to significant engineering details, such as the chain cam drive bathed in oil at the bottom of the motor and the offset driveshaft that lets them get more gear reduction to swing a bigger more efficient prop without the drag of a large diameter bullet in the gearcase. The Suzuki’s are still my favorite 4 stroke motor for those reasons. I've previously discussed why I picked the E-TEC.

I was admittedly skeptical about the new technology, but discussions with a colleague of mine that is now the chief engineer of the BRP test center in Stuart convinced me that all of the Ficht horror stories were irrelevant and that BRP had figured out the problems and fixed them. Subsequent experience has exceeded expectations. Also nice to see a “Made in USA” product be so competitive for a change! I think we're in agreement that all of the new motors are a big improvement from what was available only a few years ago. As far as fuel restrictions causing problems, ANY piston engine is susceptible to overheated/seized pistons if subjected to lean conditions from a clogged injector, and the extra oxygen molecule in ethanol certainly makes the lean fire hotter. Also the more overpowered you are, the less likely you are to notice a problem until it’s too late! I once had a plugged high speed jet in my old 115 that I might not have noticed if I’d had a V-6. At least the new oil injected DI motors still get oil under those conditions instead of being starved for gas AND oil as in the old days with a plugged jet! A thermocouple in the exhaust (an Exhaust Gas Temperature or EGT sensor) like used on some HD diesels, would detect on extra-lean situation. Will be interesting to see if an enterprising guy comes up with an aftermarket gage for that!

Sorry for the long post, but my conscience just couldn’t let this one go unchallenged!

DonV – I’m not a Scotch drinker, but I’ll have some fine ancient Bourbon imported from Kentucky at our next gathering that I'll be happy to share! :D Denny

Re: Real world #'s on a 20' CC with a 140 4S Suzuki?
 

Thanks Denny!!! My pleasure!

Re: Real world #'s on a 20' CC with a 140 4S Suzuki?
 

Ok Mr Researcher, 3 questions.

1) How many DF140s have blown up due to restricted fuel lines? Short answer... none.
2) Which part of Canada is BRP from that is "made in America"?
3) How hard is it to change your car/truck oil? Can you take it to the dealership and pay $45 to do it every time? Sure, but if you are on a website dedicated to the hundreds of hours it takes to refurbish 30 year old boats, odds are you are comfortable with a filter wrench and a rag. Plus, you probably know where the NAPA is...

If you had done your research impartially instead of getting swallowed up by the full court press that BRP marketing put on, you would have noticed one thing... etech is basically FICHT. With the same failure rate. With the same super sensitivity to fuel line restrictions, viscous oil, and resulting catastrophic failure.

So, a 4th question... if the etech has 300 (or whatever) fewer parts, they why does it cost more than similar sized 4s?

My answer (which is more of an opinion than a fact) is that they factor in 300 parts worth of returned engines. Etech is basically a marketing play... BRP pushes those low maintenance numbers out there, knowing full well that a certain number of those engines are coming back . They swallow that cost, and do everything they can to shut down the internet chatter about the blown blocks by handing out free engines to the squeaky wheels. If you are a weekend guy who putters around for fun, then losing a few weeks of down time and getting a brand new engine at no cost is a minor hassle. If you are a comm fishermen, or someone whose income depends on your limited time on the water, then no amount of new engines is going to recover that lost time.

I personally would rather do service on something every 100 hours, then trust a warranty.

And for the record, I think etechs are good solid engines! It took a little bit for them to work out plugs, oil, etc but they are very solid engines. I guess my deeper point is that while new technology is great, I don't want to be the guinea pig. I'll wait a few years and look at the track record of the product, and by that measure, DF140 seems to be a pretty good engine for the 20.

The etechs seem to be doing great too. Very glad to know you are happy with yours, and I will certainly check out the 150 when I am ready to repower my 20. By the way, there are 2 etch 150s, a high output one maybe? What is the difference and which one do you think is better for the 20? I am going to do a hermco bracket (so there will be floatation) and I am raising the decks.

I'm a talisker (peaty, spey side) guy, which I think makes me grumpy. I got mad at someone else who was talking smack about plywood.

Re: Real world #'s on a 20' CC with a 140 4S Suzuki?
 

I'll stick with my ol 150 Jonnyrude carbed 60 series. More reliable than any of todays technology for sure :D :DLets ease up a little and just give the original poster what he wanted. Performance numbers based on experience. Peace, out!

Re: Real world #'s on a 20' CC with a 140 4S Suzuki?
 

You mean like this original offer from Denny on 4/7??? From where I sit, it was an opportunity to use detailed information compiled while doing research similar to what the original poster wanted to help in his purchase, you can take it or leave it. After all....It's the buyer's money, he can spend as he wants. Sorry about the plywood thing Mr. KenB, however on this forum we don't bash members who are trying to be of help.

Re: Real world #'s on a 20' CC with a 140 4S Suzuki?
 

I was don't see how it's helpful to repeat the marketing mantra from the boat shows... when people with the real world experience will tell you that oil change numbers used by the boat show marketers are bunk.

Took me repeated visits to merc, BRP, Yammy, and Suzi dealers to figure out why etechs were more expensive.

Original poster went with DF140 and will be happy he did so. I am happy to send him (or anyone else) the manuals I have, if that will help lower ownership costs.

Re: Real world #'s on a 20' CC with a 140 4S Suzuki?
 

Ken, Denny is a person who tends to over-research things before offering his two cents. Because the information he found was similar to what dealers and reps offer doesn't mean he was simply parroting that data. You need to ask about what real data is available on a given topic. Give him the benefit of the doubt. I'd be willing to bet he spent hours and hours researching various motors before he bought his Etec.
Just as I spent four months researching before I bought my 90 Optimax.

Denny's one of the good guys.

Re: Real world #'s on a 20' CC with a 140 4S Suzuki?
 

Father Frank hit it on the Head!!! Denny does very thorough research and his conclusions are always well considered.

Re: Real world #'s on a 20' CC with a 140 4S Suzuki?
 

Good to know, and I have really appreciated Denny's comments and insight, on this and other threads. I think we both agree on pretty much everything the other has posted... I think his research on the etechs is spot on. I even asked him for feedback on the HO 150 versus regular 150 for my 20SF.

I wanted to point out that you don't have to do oil changes at the dealership, and that should be factored into the cost when comparing motors.

Here in the north east, we have a very limited usage window... down time matters a lot more. So if two companies have different approaches or business models, it's important to outline what that means to end users. The general 4s mantra is 'change the oil and they will run forever.' The DI 2 strokes are much more finicky and must be serviced by pros, but when set up corrected should be basically service free.

Frank - didn't your opti just blow up from a fuel related issues? And wasn't it replaced by merc? I personally would rather pay extra for oil changes and not have an engine die on me out there, even if I got a free motor. Do you think if you had a high pressure injected motor or a 4 stroke it would have made a difference, in terms of limping back in?

Denny - You have a beautiful boat. I am really glad the etech has worked out for you thus far, and I know BRP will take care of you at the first signs of trouble. Enough of this already! Build fast go fishing!

Also, I sent the guy who started the thread the DF140 manual PDFs I have collected to date, and he seemed happy.

Re: Real world #'s on a 20' CC with a 140 4S Suzuki?
 

Yes, sort of. But Mercury is not honoring my warranty.
This time it's High Pressure fuel pump and air pump failure, supposedly caused by ethanol. Yes, my motor is supposed to be under warranty til April 23 of this year (3+2 warranty). But no, Mercury is trying very hard not to pay for these repairs.

I have had my motor repaired under warranty four times previously:

• once for ethanol damage to sensors in the LPT, resulting in complete fuel system failure. The cost to repair in parts and labor was $6,700, (which is actually more than the $5,700 I paid for the motor when new in '06).
• once for computer failure, requiring replacement of the PCM: $1,700 in parts and labor.
• once for PCM-induced coil failures: $2,150 in parts and labor
• once for alternator failure: $600 parts and labor

Now we have ethanol induced failure of the fuel pump, plus the air pump swallowed a reed-valve when the HP fuel pump quit.

Mercury is now claiming that an "irregularity" with the original purchase paperwork for the motor voids my warranty, and in fact, I never had a valid warranty to begin with, even though they have authorized warranty repair four times previously. The "irregularity" is because I purchased my motor as a new "left-over" from ProLine Boats, who is "not an authorized retailer" of Mercury motors. The original invoice shows that ProLine Boats, inc., transferred the motor to ProLine Marine Services, inc., whose invoice named me on the the block for the address location for the motor to be shipped to, leaving the actual purchaser name block on the sales invoice blank. According to Mercury, this only means I received the motor, not that I purchased it, and I am therefore not entitled to the warranty, even though I have the cancelled check I wrote for the motor.

I have purchased eight new Mercury motors over the past 36 years, totalling over $36,000, from a pair of 25SS racing motors back in the 70's, to a 3.4L in the 80's, and this 90 Opti in '06.

I've bought more than 15 used Mercury's, counting those already rigged on boats I've purchased. But if Mercury Marine chooses to void my warranty for petty stuff like this, I will never buy another Mercury outboard, new or used, and I will use my influence to deter other people from buying Mercury as well.

:( I am very unhappy about all of this, can you tell? :(

Re: Real world #'s on a 20' CC with a 140 4S Suzuki?
 

Hummmm.........I can sure tell this is not a trick question!!! I can see why you are not happy!! Am I doing my math correctly, the four bullet points equal $11,150!?!?! So as not to use bad language, holly poop!

Re: Real world #'s on a 20' CC with a 140 4S Suzuki?
 

Frank - Thank you for the update, and I am really sorry about the headaches. You deserve a new motor. Have you discussed small claims court or the BBB with them? I am pretty sure either option would result in a decision in your favor. The paper work seems pretty clear. If they had just sold you an engine that worked, none of this would have happened!

That said, they did do a lot of work for you (to date), I think even if they don't replace this engine, you got your warranty's worth of service and repairs. Sounds like you had 30 years of great stuff from merc, so it seems silly to let this one get the best of you... It's not like they didn't take care of you at all before, or that you had lots of years left on the warranty. You did get 5 years out of that motor... maybe try a verado next? I think 2006 was pretty early on in the optimax era, so I am sure things are better with optis now too.

THE BURNING QUESTION... If you don't get a new opti from them, what next? Are you leaning towards etech? DF140? New Honda? Yammy? Maybe Tohatsu??? This should probably be a whole new section on the site, let alone a new thread: "Frank's new outboard search." My attempt at "silver lining"; if you don't want a merc, now you get to pick out something new!

While you are waiting for a new outboard... better get one of these: http://devour.com/video/water-jet-pack/

Re: Real world #'s on a 20' CC with a 140 4S Suzuki?
 

Don, Richard, Frank and Urban – appreciate the kind words! And Frank, yes I actually thought about the repower & bracket for about 4 YEARS before I actually pulled the trigger, and I also spent several months comparing the various motors in great detail and putting together the spreadsheet. Sorry to hear about your motor problems, but sure appreciate your posting them. It's inspired me to start checking ethanol content! So far I haven't found anything over 10%, and what's in the boat now is about 5-6%.

KenB - you do have some good questions/comments which I’ll try to address . . .

2. BRP is of course a Canadian owned and managed company, but all of the E-TEC design, development and production work is done in Sturtevant, Wisconsin, which was still in the USA the last time I checked!

3. Oil changes? You’re right that oil changes are pretty simple compared to some of the high tech stuff on the new motors, although you can download the diagnostic software for free from BRP, and if you have a laptop with a serial port, you can buy or easily make a cable which plugs into the motor’s diagnostic port. It won’t let you do all the stuff a dealer can do, like change the oil ratio from TCW-3 to full synthetic, but it WILL give you the entire history of the motor, including time @ rpm in 500 rpm increments, max temperature of both heads and the ECM, along with any fault codes EVER displayed and engine hours at which they occurred. (Good to know if you’re considering a used one.) It WILL let you do some useful “cylinder drop” diagnostic tests, where you can sequentially disable the ignition or fuel injector on each cylinder to determine which cylinder is causing a misfire, etc.

You bet I’ve always changed my own oil in all my vehicles, mainly because I like to fill the new filter with oil before installing, which most places don’t do! They say running an engine dry for a few seconds doesn’t hurt anything, but I figure it sure as hell doesn’t HELP! In fact I’m planning to plumb a pressurized remote oil reservoir with a solenoid valve into the oil system on my old “Cuda when I finish restoring it. When I go to start that blueprinted & balanced engine after it’s been sitting for a month or so, a couple of quarts of oil will be forced thru it before I hit the starter!

“. . . E-TEC failure rate is the same as the Ficht.“ If that were true, the dealers who have to face the irate customers would have abandoned BRP en mass, and they would have gone out of business years ago. I’m frankly amazed that sales have recovered as well as they have after the Ficht fiasco. I think sandbagging on the power ratings is a smart approach, because once folks discover how strong they run, the resulting “word of mouth” will get more folks to looking at them than any marketing hype ever will. As for durability, only time will tell, but the service manager at my dealer says he’s had fewer problems on them than either the Honda’s or Yamahas, which seem to have good reputations themselves.

In my research, I didn’t waste time talking to sales/marketing types that can’t answer even simple technical questions! I agree that the marketing hype has been incredible. The very fact that there HAVEN’T been any big libel suits from the competition tells me that there was NOTHING in any of those comparison tests that a hungry lawyer (which the USA has plenty of!) could latch on to for a lawsuit. I spoke at length with 2 BRP engineers. The first guy said they had been watching the Ficht motors from the beginning, and based on their experience with the 2-stroke Sea/Ski-Doos, they felt that they understood what the problems were and how to fix them. It was obvious that OMC was in financial trouble, so they simply waited for the bankruptcy to buy them for pennies on the dollar. The Chief Engineer at the Stuart test center, who I had worked with in a previous job for many years and knew I could trust to give me the straight story, was there before and after the buyout. He said many of the Ficht problems were directly related to OMC buying off a lot of deviated parts, maybe because of financial pressure. He said that BRP management was a substantial, order of magnitude improvement; they really cleaned house, got rid of all the bad parts and even tightened up tolerances in some cases. He said the quality on anything built by BRP was dramatically improved over the OMC stuff and that they were truly excellent motors. As Chief Engineer, he had great visibility into the whole operation, so it was his confidence in the product that convinced me, back in March 2006, that the benefits of the then-new technology were sufficient to justify the risk to give it a try. So far it’s proved me right. However like most engineers, I’ve learned more about Murphy’s Law than I ever wanted to know. Murphy would say that as soon as I brag about the motor, it’ll blow up the next day!

4. Why do they cost so much with so many fewer parts? I honestly have no idea, except that since they are generally the lightest engines in class and nearly as quiet as the 4-strokes, they’re probably charging whatever the market will bear. Price is not always directly related to manufacturing cost if you have a very competitive product that’s in high demand. If they really were having lots of problems, sales would drop and they’d be forced to drop the price. So prices aren’t dropping? Draw your own conclusions!

On the E-TEC 150 HO – it’s only made in the 20” shaft version and has slightly less gear reduction, so it’s apparently aimed at the bass boat market. The standard version is what you want for our type of boat. If 165 hp at the prop isn't enough, the 175 and 200 are the same powerhead and weight, although the torque/rpm curves may be optimized toward the higher rpm range for the higher ratings. You also cannot change the gas/oil ratio on HO models from the factory TCW-3 setting to the reduced oil usage setting for the XD-100 full synthetic oil, so they’ll use a bit more oil than a standard “leaned out” motor.

Sorry for the long post but this site is notorious for good intelligent discussions of almost any issue. These issues are no different! Denny