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Noob questions
Hi everyone. I've been reading the forums for a few days now. A little about myself... I live in Florida. My buddy and I spearfish and we are looking to buy a boat to take out of the Tampa/Sarasota area. Together we are going to have about a $4000 budget. We want to buy a fixer upper and do whatever work is needed ourselves.
I know nothing about boats, other than they are supposed to float. I am very mechanically inclined(taught myself how to fix cars, to include engine/tranny swaps) and am willing to learn whatever is necessary. We aren't planning on actually buying the boat until September or October. So between now and then I plan to read, read, read. My primary question is... is $4000 a reasonable budget to purchase a 23' Tsunami/Scepter OB in decent condition, and get it sea worthy if we do all of the work ourselves? My second question is... can anyone recommend some good books with the information I'll need to undertake this project? I also plan on taking boating safety classes and learning about boat handling and anything else I can. We are probably going to be 9+ miles offshore and I would rather not end up a statistic. I know this question has probably been asked before, and I have tried searching, but have been unable to find anything. Apologies if my search skills are lacking. |
Re: Noob questions
I paid $2700 for a scepter and have put about 2-3k into it and its all ready.
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Re: Noob questions
Welcome to the forum and a great source of information and good advice by some very experienced folks! If you haven't seen this thread, I'd start there! You can probably learn as much from it and the other threads in the repairs section as any book. Island Trader, Blue Heron, and others are also doing some great stuff on their boats. Beyond that, just post any questions on this great forum. The only dumb question is the one you DON'T ask! :D
BTW, the Sceptre is a great dive boat and they may even be a little cheaper than the CC's which aren't as good for diving. |
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$4000 budget for a Septre, can you do it? Yes, if you are lucky and have enough knowledge to pick the right boat. You can also get in way over your head. I'm fairly knowledgeable and would not try it.
Suggestion: a 20 seafari makes a fabulous dive boat in your area. I fished/dived mine for years from Bayport to south of the Tampa ship channel, 20-40 miles offshore, almost every trip. Put 6 tanks in the well forward and she will go though most anything and be reasonably nice to your kidneys. About as close to bullet proof as any boat can be. Not as rough water capable as a Septre but close in that format. Dives three in comfort and 4 in a crowd. The thing about the seafari is cost. Everything is cheaper, from fuel to engines to all the little stuff, to any major refurbishing you need. If you are on a budget, its hard to beat for your application. |
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I second Connor's advice! You should come to one of our gatherings and see some of these boats up close and personal! If you'll only have 2 folks on board, a 23 is overkill! The Seafari 20 is more than adequate and would be much easier for a beginner to handle. They also seem to be cheaper in the used market than the CC models; most folks evidently just want to fish and don't appreciate the Seafari's versatility. Without the Sceptre's walk thru windshield, it's a little harder to get on the front deck for anchoring and docking, but you just need to have permanently rigged bow lines running back to cockpit, a good deck pipe to the rope locker and anchor chocked on deck or in a roller bracket to easily address those issues.
The 23 is a much bigger heavier boat, harder to handle and tow, requires a bigger thirstier motor and tandem axle trailer, etc. Figure a max towed weight of 4000 lbs for the 20 vs. 6000+ for the 23. I easily tow my Seafari on a single axle trailer (with brakes) with a mid-size pickup. With a 23, the tandem trailer has twice as many wheels, bearings, tires and springs to cause problems, is harder to maneuver, and you'll need at least a 1/2 ton pick-up to tow it, possibly with 4WD on bad ramps. The Seafari has a 10' long cockpit, so plenty of room for dive gear for 2 guys. It also has a bigger better ventilated cabin than the Sceptre, with 6 1/2' long bunks vs 6' in the Sceptre. The 72 & earlier models have a big step down in the cockpit which is a handy place to put a 70 qt cooler when it's rough to get some weight forward to improve the ride. The later models have a small step down and a bigger gas tank. As Fr. Frank will tell you, it's incredibly seaworthy for a 20' boat. Getting the CG right is key for a good ride. If you balance it right, you can plane at 12-13 mph and ride through 3-4' seas very comfortable, sitting down! I ran mine 160 nm to the Abaco's a half dozen times back in the late 70's/early 80's with a light simple 115 Evinrude with no problems. I made one 60 nm trip back across the gulf stream from West End in seas up to 6-8' in 4 hrs, a 15 kt average. Fr. Frank has had his Seafari out in much rougher stuff than that. Have made some nice long trips around the state in mine the last couple of years, so search my posts (click on my username and then on "Show all users posts") and you'll see what can be done with this amazingly versatile boat! If you want more info on the Seafari, PM me with an e-mail address & I can send you some pdf files of old factory brochures I scanned. Denny |
Re: Noob questions
Thanks for the info guys!
I understand what you guys are saying about the 20' vs the 23'. I think I will definitely be looking for a 20' Seafari. Should I try to find a boat that is already in good condition for around $4k, or try to find one that needs work and fix it myself? What about the motor? What work would you guys definitely recommend? It seems like the transom is one of the few weaknesses of the Seacraft hulls. Should I definitely plan on redoing that? Again, thanks for all the information guys! You guys have probably already saved me from disaster, haha! |
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Plan on doing whatever needs re-doing. Cosmetics can and will rip you and your friend a "new one" if chased to the Nth degree! If you don't know enough about boats to look at one like someone else is buying it and pointing out what kind of condition all its components are in; hull, deck, transom, motor, electronics, etc, etc., get someone who is and then add up what must be done and what would be nice to do eventually.
Now you're ready to make a decision to buy or not to buy or use the information to negotiate a lower price of sale. When you find a situation that is manageable within you budget- pull the trigger and proclaim yourself terminally ill with SeaCraft-itis!!! Remember, Strictly from a dollars and cents perspective, "If it flies, FLOATS - RENT IT! Good luck. |
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For me, cosmetics are definitely a distant second to the seaworthiness of the boat. I would love to have a good looking boat, but I'm going to be working with a $4k-5k budget initially and impressing the SeaTow guys with how pretty my boat looks when they show up is not my goal. :D
I definitely plan on hiring a marine surveyor to inspect the boat. I'm not going to rush myself on this. I plan on starting to look for a boat in September and having it ready for the water by April. I figure that gives me all winter to do any repairs that are necessary. |
Re: Noob questions
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BTW, avoid the 23' Tsunami on the east coast with the twin Volvos. It needs complete repowering, and transom replacement and deck recoring. The cost will easily exceed $10k even if you put a cheap bracket and used OB on it. Posting of Craigslist or any other Boat for Sale ad is against CSC Forum rules and will be deleted |
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I actually live in Orlando, I also don't own a vehicle that can tow a boat, haha! This works to my advantage somewhat though because I figure I'm centrally located to both coasts, making it easier for me to get to boats on the east coast. I would definitely compensate any CSC members who were kind enough to help me check out a boat, when the time comes, with lunch and plenty of beer!
My plan is to keep the boat at a marina that has the dry storage shelves and a forklift. I figure the cost of storing it there won't be too much more than the gas it would cost to drive it back and forth to the coast twice a month(vehicle that gets 25mpg vs 10mpg). Also, I won't have to buy a truck that can pull it. I figure I will only have to tow it twice to get it to the marina: once to my house when I buy it(if it needs work) and once to the marina. I will just rent a Uhaul or something for those days. If my thinking is flawed feel free to let me know. I like that Seafari up in tallahasee, but I'm not ready to buy yet(financially or knowledge-wise). Thanks for the tip though! And that mash-up site is awesome! |
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If you find one near Sarasota, I'll be glad to look it over.
One thing to watch for. A few of these boats have been owned by diver/fishermen who really ran them hard. The upper deck/cabin top can get very loose and woobly, big cracks at the door frame. It doesn't really affect seaworthness, but is hard to fix without a major teardown. On surveyors, I've used an outstandingly good one and several poor excuses for garbage. There are a lot of poor ones out there. They seldom take a serious look at the condition of the engine. Find one that somebody on this forum can recommend, preferably one who has and knows how to use a moisture meter. Figure he will be expensive. |
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Thanks man, I will definitely take you up on that!
I read somewhere about $350 for a surveyor... is that about right? |
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Where did you see the Tallahassee Seafari. Thats where I sold mine. Same boat????
Check uhaul to make sure you can tow a boat with their rentals. You might want to rethink the trailer/dry storage idea. Dry Storage is wonderful, but for an older boat that needs frequent maintenance work, having it in your backyard is a huge advantage. I made dry storage work for an old 25 Bertram(LOTS of maintenance) that was 30 miles from the apartment, but only because I was single and did nothing but work, work on the boat, and dive. When I got married, the Bertram very quickly morphed to a 20 Seafari. |
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Posting of Craigslist or any other Boat for Sale ad is against CSC Forum rules and will be deleted |
Re: Noob questions
I used to tow my Seafari with a 2002 Ford Taurus with the 3.0L V6. Rated for 3500 lbs towing. Longest tow was over 1000 miles, round trip. No hiccups, no problems.
Seafari w/ bracket= 1830 lbs 135 V6 Mercury = 347 lbs Karavan 19-21T tandem trailer = 670 lbs 40 gallons fuel = 280 lbs Dive gear for two = 120 lbs Miscellaneous = 50 lbs TOTAL towed weight = 3297 lbs. You can adjust your weight figures, but that's a good ballpark. Most small or mini-pickups will pull 3500 lbs fine. I used to have an 84' 4-cylinder Ford Ranger that I regularly pulled a 20' Wellcraft V20 with. As far as cars go, the limitation is usually the frame and/or tranny. |
Re: Noob questions
I would be nervous about trying to pull a boat up a ramp with a Taurus! I saw a car get pulled into the water by a boat once when I was a kid. Not sure if the guy put it in neutral or what, I just remember thinking: Damn, sucks to be that guy.
I have a 1999 grand caravan right now... I bet that could pull it then. But, it has over 200k miles(mostly highway)... I wonder if the transmission could take it? How hard is towing on a vehicle(given that you aren't stupid about it)? |
Re: Noob questions
Don't know anything about a grand caravan, but many cars will need a transmission oil cooler added. Easy and relatively cheap in some models, not available in others. Check.
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Re: Noob questions *DELETED*
Post deleted by capt_chuck
Posting of Craigslist or any other Boat for Sale ad is against CSC Forum rules and will be deleted |
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The only way I could buy a boat right now is if I can get it into the water for under $2000.
How much more expensive are I/Os to maintain/repair than OBs? I'm assuming a lot more? What are the chances that boat will get into the water with less than $500 in repairs? I just feel like if they are asking $1500 it will need some serious work. |
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In your budget I would stay away from "old" I\O's - honest, as you mentioned you are kinda handy. Your first choice on a motor should be a Johnson or Rude - carbed. Pretty easy to learn on, parts are kinda cheap and they are pretty simple engines to keep running. The electronics modules on my Merc are driveing me crazy - like chasing ghosts.
A 20 tows easy, a V6 can do it - a 23 is another animal and for 2 divers a 20 is fine - your in Fla, if the weather is crappy go tomorrow. |
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I could take a look at it tommorow if you have interest.
Call the guy see if it's kinda of what you might want. There were a lot of them on craigs list not to long ago and a member here sold his after he got it really nice and I think it was for sale again. It.s featured in the Seacraft Gallery under Botapeje's 20 Seafari and it was at my house for a while and it was nice PM me if you want |
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I really appreciate the offer, but I don't think I'm going to be ready to buy a boat until the fall. Right now I don't have anywhere to work on it, nor do I have the cash to afford to fix it up.
I'm just trying to research and learn at this point, so when the time comes I can make a decent decision. In regards to the Seafari, from what I understand it is a fairly rare boat, and a lot of the ones I've seen are I/Os. They did come with OBs but not until the later years right? How much would it cost to convert an I/O to an OB? Is this feasible on my budget or should I just try to find an OB? How much would a new bracket for an OB set up cost? What is the average cost for redoing a transom on its own? I've been reading through the threads here, and there is a HUGE wealth of knowledge but I haven't came across many posts that list cost. Just trying to get an idea. I really appreciate all of your guys input! |
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People don't often post expenses because they've heard - or already know - how costly divorce can be :D
Regarding the Seafari, there were plenty of early outboards made. Bushwacker's and mine were both '72s... I think the mix was pretty even except in '71 and '72, see chart: http://classicseacraft.com/brochures...production.pdf If you want an OB get an OB. You can find a decent old merc or evinrude 115 for around a grand all day long in FL. I think you could easily find a decent running Seafari in the 3k range. If you did the transom yourself you could probably do it around $600 of materials. If you found just a neglected hull you could likely get it for under a grand on an old trailer. Quality flotation brackets ain't cheap, probably 2k or better; maybe as much as neglected running Seafari itself. If you go for a bracket make sure it is a flotation bracket as you'll be moving the center of gravity way back, and that will prove significant. For your target price I'd stick to older 2 stroke motors in the 115 hp range that will weigh in @ 290 to 330 lbs and hang them on the transom. That's kind of the target motor weight on the older 20s. That being said I would suggest you find one with a 25" transom or plan on raising it. I'd probably ditch the bracket idea unless I planned on repowering with a 400 lb + late model motor. The 1970s 20' hulls are pretty weight sensitive because they have a narrow beam 7'6" and vertical thru hull scuppers that let water in if they have too much weight aft. Of course if you're diving you'll get wet feet anyway. Good luck in your search. I personally prefer cuddy cabins for the camping element and shelter from the storm but ccs are great dive boats too. As far as budget goes, if you have a target in mind... plan on doubling it before you're happy |
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As far as budget goes, if you have a target in mind... plan on doubling it before you're happy. :D Say Amen, Brother! At the lower end. |
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If the Seafari is as bulletproof as it sounds(and I'm sure it is) I plan on keeping this boat for a long while and making it my baby. I don't doubt that I'll end up spending a lot more than the wife would like on it! But for the time being, my goal is just to get a reliable boat.
I am definitely starting to get a better grasp on what I should be looking for when it comes time to buy. Now I need to start learning about outboard engines, hah! I'm assuming that all of the older 2 strokes are fairly similar in design? I'm thinking about getting the repair manual for a johnson 115 and starting to get familiar with it. If I end up getting a different type of engine will that have been a waste of time? |
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s is why I own one now 30 years later. This is my 2nd Seafari. For pulling with a regular passenger vehicle you can find no better boat than the Seafari. I have, like Denny, taken a Seafari to the Bahamas many times, making the crossing in good weather and in terrifying weather. I have taken my Seafari as much as 115 miles offshore in the Gulf of Mexico to the Florida Middle Grounds. Given that I'm a painstaking nut for planning my trips that far offshore, and always traveled with one or more boats in company, I still never worried about the boat being able to take the seas. For years I have been in love with the Mercury/Mariner "Tower of Power" inline 6 cylinder engines, which were made in models ranging from 70 to 150 hp. They are, in fact, the engine the 20' SeaCraft was designed to run. I find them more dependable that the equivalent Johnson/Evinrude's. But the truth be told, many people have the opposite experience. If you are 20 miles out, and have a problem, you want a motor you can feel some confidence in troubleshooting. Early inline Mercs used a distributor in their ignition system. Easy to troubleshoot, not so easy to fix. Later '78 through '88 inline 6 motors used an electronic ignition system, called ADI. It is very similar to the OMC "powerpack" ignition. Mercury called theirs a "switchbox". Mercury used 2 of these to ignite the 6 cylinder motors. OMC used only one on their V4 85-140 hp motors. Theoretically, you could get back on just 3 cylinders with the Merc. In saltwater areas, OMC parts are more readily available than Mercury parts, and generally cost a bit less. You have to decide. If the choice were mine, I'd find a very good condition, later model inline Mercury. It will cost a bit more than the equivalent OMC, but I'm more knowledgeable and therefore more comfortable with the Mercury/Mariner. Both are great motors. Getting to know the OMC V4 motor is not a waste of time. Most of the principles apply to any older motor; just the applications differ. |
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If you have a wife, she'll like having the cabin and head on the Seafari, but she WON'T like being stranded with motor problems, so you're right to focus on reliability!
There are some differences on the older motors besides the ignition system Fr. Frank mentioned, which I agree is probably better on the Merc. The I-6 Merc is a mono block, i.e., the block and head are all one casting, which eliminates lots of bolts and the head gasket which can leak. However an outboard cylinder head is very simple and it's nice to be able to remove it to inspect condition of pistons and cylinders, although you can do that on the I-6 Merc with a borescope. The other difference I noticed is that the Merc's had higher performance powerheads (more hp/cu in.) and were built more like aircraft engines. They were typically a little lighter, using aluminum cowlings which were light but transmitted more noise than the F/G cowlings on the OMC's. Merc props are retained with a fancy tab washer to lock the nut; OMC's use a simple cotter pin like on boat trailer wheel bearing. Prop fit on the old OMC's was pretty sloppy, but the prop would slide aft every time you hit reverse, so less likely to become seized on the shaft. They used mostly fine thread bolts where the OMC's used course thread bolts. The fine thread bolts are stronger, but they also offer more surface area to seize up, which is a common problem on outboards due to galvanic action between the aluminum castings and steel bolts. (One of the main tools for working on old motors is the propane or acetylene wrench!) Not a problem if you stay on top of maintenance by greasing frequently removed stuff like water pump bolts, prop & driveshaft splines, etc., but when buying an older motor, was that done on it? Not trying to scare you off on buying an old motor, but just need to be sure you're getting into it with your eyes wide open! Two friends of mine with Merc's paid big $ because they hadn't stayed on top of the maintenance. One had to destroy his prop to get it off because he hadn't greased the shaft often enough. The other took his to the dealer for a routine water pump change, expecting to pay a couple hundred $. It cost him over $800 (in 1975 $) because the driveshaft splines were seized inside the crankshaft! They cut a hole in the exhaust housing to cut the drive shaft and then had to completely tear down the whole motor to replace the crankshaft, driveshaft and exhaust housing! With the current $100/hr labor rates, these days a new motor would have probably been cheaper! When I bought my Seafari in 1975, the only real choice in motors were Mercury or OMC (Johnson & Evinrude, which are identical except for paint and decals), although Chrysler also made some very simple lightweight motors. Yamaha's came later and I have no experience with them, although I hear they're good motors too; imported though, so parts may be more expensive. At that time there were lots of 20-25 year old OMC's running around, and that's ALL you saw in the Bahamas, but you didn't see very many OLD Merc's. The Merc's had a reputation of being great fresh water motors, but they seemed to have more corrosion problems than the OMC's. Bought a new 115 Evinrude in 1975 and ran it till repowering/adding bracket in 2006. It still had good compression and was running good when I sold it, although it was getting hard to start when cold; I suspect the reed valves may have needed replacing. I picked the 115 instead of the more highly tuned 135 (with the same 100 cu. inch power head) because of better idle quality and long term durability. Although I had to replace numerous coils and one power pack and a starter, it never left me stranded once in 31 years and over 900 hours, so I had no complaints. |
Re: Noob questions
Denny has a good point about the reed valves. ALL old 2 strokes get weak reeds as they age, so in addition to what he said about becoming harder to start, they often begin to to have trouble idling, and to tend to stall when shifting into gear, if you don't then add throttle immediately. The cure for this is installing new reeds.
On an inline Merc, changing the reed block means a total tear-down of the motor, because they're mounted on the crankshaft. On an Johnson/Evinrude, they're mounted between the manifold and the block, and only require removing the intake manifold to replace. To change the reeds on a 115 Johnson V4 from the 70's or 80's was only a 1 hour repair. On a Mercury inline, it was more like 3 hours at a minimum. Most old inline Mercury owners simply increase the idle rpms from the original setting of 600 rpms, to 800-850 rpms at idle to counter the stalling issue without a complete tear-down to rebuild the reed block. Still, I wouldn't hesitate to own either one after I had thoroughly inspected the motor and found it sound. |
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It doesn't provide enough detail on specific engines for you to actually work on them, but it does provide an excellent overview on how two stroke outboards work. Reading through it gave me the basic understanding I needed so that when I did get the factory service manual for my Merc outboards I understood what I was looking at. It might be a better option than a service manual as an introduction to capacitor discharge ignition, reed valves, oil injection, etc. that are common to most of the outboards manufactured in the last 20 years. Dave |
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Thanks Blue Heron! Just ordered it for $12 w/ shipping. That was exactly what I wanted, don't know why I didn't think of looking for a book like that.
I also ordered Chapmans Piloting and Seamanship. I figured I should learn some stuff about actually using the boat too, haha. Thanks for all of the info guys, I really appreciate it! |
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