Bertram vs Seacraft
 

Ok,I'm not saying I really want to do another restoration project,and most likely I won't but I've been daydreaming about a resto on a Bertram in the 20-25'range.
I love my 1974 Tsunami and would never ever part with it,no matter what.I think I may just have myself buried in it when the bucket gets kicked.
Now,having said that,I love the look and lines of the older Bertrams like the old moppies,and occasionally see them come up for reasonable prices.I know that they are a famous hull and known for their good sea handling.
For those of you who have had,or now have experience either in owning both brands or running both brands,how would you compare them to each other?

I may never do this,but I keep thinking about(if I can afford it)that in addition to having my Tsunami on the great lakes(Ontario)it would be nice to have something in the 20-25' range to fish the salt water with.

I'm 6-1/2 hours from my Tsunami on lake Ontario,but only about 1-1/2 to 2 hours to the Ct & RI shores.
I guess I could move the Tsunami to the salt,but my priorty is Samon and Steelhead fishing,with a lot of money invested in specialized tackle.I also have lots of friends in NY.(Niagara county) where I fish,so I don't want to leave there entirely.
I'm thinking that it would be nice to have something closer to home in addition to the Tsunami in NY.
Something to maybe run down at the shore,maybe for a quick weekend trip fishing off the beaches for flounder or blues, stripers,etc.Maybe an occasional trip to Block island.

I know that realistically if I wanted to get serious into fishing the salt I'd also have to spend loads of money on different styles of tackle,but I have enough kicking around to have fun with.
I suppose it may make more sense to find an older center console in good condition that needs no major work,but I just love the looks of those Bertrams,not to mention that having both a classic Seacraft,and a classic Bertram would be great.

So tell me,am I crazy?,how do the two compare,and having done some salt water fishing,but still a rookie,is a boat like this the best choice or is a center console the way to go?
And yes,I've thought plenty hard about a classic 20'Secraft ctr console.

Re: Bertram vs Seacraft
 

Can give you side by side comparison. I Presently own a 20 and 25 Bert Moppie, and a 20 and 23 cc Seacrafts.
20 bert- Hull issues, stringers usually bad, floor balsa core
usually bad, original gas tank Fiberglass a no-no, transoms usually o'k as Bertram glasses key hole. Original seating good after market usually not as comfortable. Ride not as soft as Seacraft. Fantastic in following sea. Slightly corky action drifting in a cross sea. Will drift nose into tide.
20 Seacraft no need to make comment
25 Bertram. Usual issue is the glass fuel tank and original 6 cyl. GMC Truck engines. Structurally the 25's are built like tanks. Occasional soft floor in corners by engine hatch. Transoms most OF TIME are SOLID UNLESS SOMEONE PUT A LOT OF Holes IN WITHOUT SEALING PROPERLY. This is a BEAMY boat ( 9' 6"). Not a candidate for trailering, you will need a rig capable of hauling 10k. Moppies just fine with 3.0liter Mercruisers. Cruise @3100 rpm = 20 kts. Burn 8-10 gph at cruise. Fantastic in following sea. Not as soft as 23 Seacraft. Shear beam and weight let you power thru anything.
Any other specific quesytions send a PM. Bob "The old timer"

Re: Bertram vs Seacraft
 

the_old_timer,

This may be an unfair question, but if you had to sell 3 of the 4 you discuss, which one wouldn't you sell?

Re: Bertram vs Seacraft
 

John,
Carla has a Saltwater beast in the 27 Seamaster that will
run circles around any Bertram!!!!
For the asking price you could not even buy the engines
for any other boat!!

Trust me there would not be anybody that would not be looking at you while heading out to the deep blue... :D

See ya, Ken

Re: Bertram vs Seacraft
 

This is the follow up question I had in mind. Why not sell three and buy one. The best of both categories - HANDS DOWN!

Re: Bertram vs Seacraft
 

no such thing as a "moppie" - "moppie" was richard bertram's wife - he called her that,she had wild red hair...

"moppie" is the name bertram used on their hulls,when launched - kinda like how rybovich used "charmer"

the bertram's were built like no others - in it's day,they were it.fiberglass tanks - bertram had tanks made from both a polyester resin and an epoxy resin - polyester based resin - the cheap stuff,the stuff with the styrene smell,ethanol laced fuel will disolve the styrene from the resin - epoxy is not effected.fiberglass tanks,befor ethe introduction of e10 fuel,were the best option - last forever,unlike aluminum...

Re: Bertram vs Seacraft
 

Oh I know! it would turn heads,and boy would I love to own it.I look at the pics. of it several times a week.It would actually be an awesome great lakes boat,especially for my type of fishing (strictly trolling)
The other nice thing would be blowing by lots of other boats in the 30'and over range when caught in that crappy steep close wave snott.
Nothing would be better than rubbing it in to the guys(friends)in their so called high pedigree boat brands by blowin by em in the slop.
I know this sounds really "Juvenille",but there is one guy who has two Tiaras,(a 31 & a 36)He's a charter captain,and kind of a friend,but he's a bit cocky and arrogant.What ever he has,or whatever he does is the best(in his mind anyway).
That is one!!guy I'd love to go blowin by,especially with a 27'boat from the sixties.

Heck,I do it now in the 23 Tsunami.Had a guy in a 28'Baha cruisers(not Baja)say to me,"hey,how fast were you going when you passed me coming in?"
He asked because it was a bit nasty,steep waves,with a weird direction to them.I was able to get on top of them and keep a good speed while he was taking a beating.

If I didn't have the Tsunami,and was living up near the lake I would be giving serious thought to that 27,what a beauty.

And why wasn't I born rich so that I could have all the toys that I want(like that 27 Seamaster)and why do I,or we keep getting older.?

Old timer,
I've been down to Sayville a few times in the last month to see my son,one of these days I got to get in touch with you.Would love to see your rigs.
looks like you really can't compare the bertram 20 & 25 to the Seacraft 23' as the 20 Bert is quite a bit smaller and the 25 Bert is much larger.All beautiful boats however.

Re: Bertram vs Seacraft
 

Not really comparable is right. The best would depend on what you were doing. I've owned a 25 Bert, 20 Seafari and now a 25 Seafari. For me, the 25 Seafari is by far the best boat I've ever owned. If I just wanted to fish and did not want to go very far to do it, I'd take the 25 Bert. Old timer is right, its beamy, huge inside. We could take 4-5 tank divers and gear and feel like the boat was still empty, just a huge amount of space. In the conditions I used it in, stable, sea kindly and very efficient. Its also nimble for its size, helps when hunting spots. My fuel and speed numbers mirror old timers. However, the boat is slow, go fast and it eats fuel like you would not believe. A friend had one with twin 6 cylinder volvo 1/0s, I'm remembering 23 knot cruise, but slightly over half my fuel economy. Going 18-20 knots when you need to run 30-50 miles gets very old.

Re: Bertram vs Seacraft
 

This is CSC not CB.
My best friend and neighbor was Ray C. {Racy} Hunt as a young child in Padanaram, Ma. I know a little history.

Word on the street was Dick Bertram wanted a new hull design. He and his wife were in Newport for the races in `59/60? I was not there, but here is the story.

Jim Wynn brought a new design and was blasting across the harbor when he was spotted by Mr. Bertram. Mr. B. immediately went to shore and called C Raymond Hunt. He asked him to drop everything and come down and look at it. Mr. Hunt and Waldo Howland {a wonderful unsung designer} came to Newport and found the boat. They took notes.

They built a 30 ft. wooden prototype named Moppie, and the rest is history. It became the 31.

I have fished on a restored 25 H.T. It was a nice original before the resto. It is a fine sea boat and big for its size. It was a little wet and landed with a thud, but I never felt unsafe.

Good artists borrow, great artists steal.

The ole` Berts earned their reputation. I saw a beautifully restored 20` "Moppie" at the ramp a few weeks ago, but was unable to talk to the owner. Many call the open boats Moppies.

Cheers,
GFS

Re: Bertram vs Seacraft
 

Ran a 46 ft bertram with 8-71 ti, was slow (20 knots max) and had what the family and self called the Bertam bang when heading into a sea. With that said was a good boat and raised quite a few billfish but was slow compared to todays boats. It was built like a rock.
ET

Re: Bertram vs Seacraft
 

Back in the mid 70's, my grandfather had an early 50's built 45' Rybovich with twin supercharged Chrysler Imperial inline flat-head 8-cylinder gas motors. My grandfather said the motors were designed for a type of WWII MTB that never saw servce. The boat was built for him by Rybovich around those motors.

In contrast, my Uncle Obie's boat in the next slip at Lake Worth Yacht Club was a new 46' Bertram with twin 8-71t's. At the same speed the Rybo would cut through many waves while Uncle Obie's boat would pop over a wave top and then sound like a drum booming as it hit the next wave. The Bertram seemed to bob up and down twice as much as the Rybovich in seas.
The Bertram was fiberglass-hulled, whereas the Rybovich hull was mahogany and teak, and much heavier.
The Rybovich had a top speed of 18-20 knots, and I remember the Bertram was a bit faster, but I don't know by how much.

I liked both boats, but the Rybovich was like a metaphorical Rolls-Royce as to the Bertram's Oldsmobile.
I planned, navigated, and piloted that Rybovich to the Bahamas at the age of 10, under my grandfather's tutelage.

And I really wish I could afford Carl's 27' SeaMaster. :D :D :D

Re: Bertram vs Seacraft
 

that designed boat - it won the miami/nassau race - it became the "plug" for the 31 -"moppie" was the name of that boat,named after dick's wife

"many call the open boats "moppie" - and that my friend would be incorrect - no such model

i know a litle "history too ;)

Re: Bertram vs Seacraft
 

My boat is named Wide OPen. I don`t believe SC ever made a Wide OPen model, but many models have spent time there.

Don`t get your Bahia Mars in a ruffle.

Cheers,
GFS

Re: Bertram vs Seacraft
 

that's one of those things that "chap my a$$"
"i have a 28 moppie",a guy on my dock told me - i explained to him,the whole story...
again,just one of those things that tweak me,like people who say "issue",instead of "problem"...

Re: Bertram vs Seacraft
 

Sounds like you may have some issues. :D

Re: Bertram vs Seacraft
 

Excuse me, but if you had a bloody nose and asked for a "Kleenex", would you get "chapped" if I handed you an XXX brand facial tissue?

I understand your point, but sometimes a term "unofficially" becomes part of the vernacular. I have checked with some of the recognized boat sales sites and find the term "moppie" used to describe the open cockpit with foredeck configuration of the bertram hull too frequently used to be ignored.

Please don't misunderstand me. The proper term is regardless, not irregardless and there is no word "orientate", it is to orient or to provide orientation. People are sloppy to say the least and it pisses me off except for one reason. It frequently indicates the level of knowledge of those we are called upon the have dealings.

Re: Bertram vs Seacraft
 

This could be a problem with issues..... :eek:

See ya, Ken

Re: Bertram vs Seacraft
 

Pelican could have some issues. Would you call that issuefobia? :D :D

Re: Bertram vs Seacraft
 

You just never know what you are getting into.Who would have thought that there were english majors frequenting this forum? I can understand issuefobs, we are all a little nutty about Seacrafts, but english majors? Time to call spidercrab.

Re: Bertram vs Seacraft
 

O'k to set the record straight.
Term "Moppie" is the street name for a 25' (REAL NAME) Sport convertible.
Also in the 25 model line up.
Sport convertible with a hardtop= You Guessed IT= "Hardtop"
Hardtop with a fly bridge= Sportfisherman
Odd model is the Bahia Mar which was an early version of what is now called a"Walk Around"
Even rarer is a Express Sedan. Also known many years ago as a "Bridge Deck"
25" never had a Center Console model, however many Moppies were converted to this configuration.
The 20' models used the same marketing names only no hardtop or sportfish models available
Also Bertram produced under 100 20' Center Consoles and they were named Sportsmen. This was the only production model CC produced be Bertram.

These marketing names carry over to the 31' models.

In answer to the question as to if I could only have one boat what would it be.
That's easy

23' SeaCraft Center Console !!!!!

"THe Old Timer"

Re: Bertram vs Seacraft
 

Excellent! a richard-measuring contest involving someone from the 'garden state', this ought to be good! -complete with all the requisite issues....or is it problems? :D Well, either way I guess there'll be some asschapping going on :D

Re: Bertram vs Seacraft
 

i wants to be there fer dis fight, witch one wood u pick :D

http://fastcache.gawkerassets.com/as...6/asschaps.jpg http://momentoffame.com/photopost/data/501/asschap.jpg

Re: Bertram vs Seacraft
 

Well, the one with the whip is obviously insecure, hence the whip. The other one exudes confidence! -just look at that unwashed swagger :eek:

Re: Bertram vs Seacraft
 

I have issues with the chaps and thong. I have a problem with the fur down here.

I like to read issues and solve problems.

Cheers,
GFS

Re: Bertram vs Seacraft
 

you guys are too funny... :o