A little lot of Karma. or re birth of a 20
 

I have seen some wet transoms but this one was caved in from the OB? It is amazing how the water got all the way to the top of the transom? The cap high above the engine well seemed to be sealed still. All the wood was like black wet shreaded wheat. All the plywood cores were bad. If any of you have not heard or seen coosa or penske board used in place of plywood this will be an enlightenment maybe? I trust this material more then any other core. Why? An old fishing friend of who has a very big commercial marble and granite installation business, Asked me where to buy the coosa penske board so he could attach it to some very intricate designs of marble to be hung on a wall at a big city convention center and I believe in at least one casino. When I found out he cut the foam board with a 40,000 psi water jet cad can table??? I thought I would see some water damage? Not a drop of water seems to have penetrated it. And this was only the 20 board not the denser blue water 26. It also will not warp like plywood if not stacked properly. Very light comparably.

Back to the little lot of karma and pictures.
http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/...0/P1010050.jpg

http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/...0/P1010056.jpg

http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/...0/P1010061.jpg

http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/...0/P1010072.jpg

http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/...0/P1010075.jpg

http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/...0/P1010070.jpg

Man, that's a goodn. Lol. How's the windshield, can I steal it and the two aft seat hatches?

I used Penske board on my transom, I am very happy with it. Take a look at my build thread.

Got it inside on a cradle. Dry fitting the penske board
 

So I can lay out for the stringers that will be raised and extended in the back. I raised floor 2 inches aft changing to 3 1/2 forward. When I start glassing next week I am going to put a lot more glass in the rounded corners before installing the double penske transom. That potter putty made a mess of the transom. The outside gelcoat was all lumpy from the potter putty being cracked from the weak wet transom. I am saving as little as needed of the original transom. The floor will run out to the hull sides. Carmen wanted a lot of crown in the transom covering board. almost 5 inches. Fuel tank base is cut and laying in place so I could measure and lay out for tank order. I have a 74 gal tank going in from S&P in barnegat. One of the top fuel tank builders I know of.

http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/...P1010055-1.jpg

http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/...P1010061-1.jpg

http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/...P1010062-1.jpg

http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/...P1010060-1.jpg

gotta love those composites jay !
nice work as usual there big guy !

Jim have you left the dark side behind yet? I cant use plywood ever again
 

Except for patterns. I Could not believe how little glass the 20 had in the transom corner after I pulled the wet wood core out. Maybe just a skin coat. The rest of the boat had sufficient glass.

been using composites on just about everything - only way to fly...

even layed up a composite deck for a local builder...he seen the light too...

weight savings vs stability and tracking
 

Looking good, Bly.:cool: Curious about any concerns regarding weight. The difference between a 20 an a 23 is pretty significant and really shows in big waters. My Seafari 20 gets thrown around like a rag doll at speed in mixed-up Pacific waters -- I mean I've come off some waves looking like I'm working a half pipe at the X-Games:D. How much overall weight do you think you'll cut using a composites and how do you you think it will affect handling rougher seas? Are we talking tens of pounds our hundreds of pounds. I bring it up because it seems a while back someone else went super light and felt the boat no longer tracked as expected.

P.S. Carmen's gonna need some cup holders on the crowned transom ;)

I have never seen a boat that was too light. Yes even my friends 34 sea vee
 

rides better in a rougher sea when we fill the hugemongus forward fish boxes with ice and even frozen bait for chunking. The 34 sea vee also has the option of being lighter and faster along with better MPG then some heavier similar sized boats This boat will have a large above deck coffin in front of the console and 74 gal fuel tank that does not have to be kept full unless the range is needed. the penske board composite is lighter then plywood but the main difference is it will never grow heavier over time like plywood, balsa wood, or even normal water logged floatation foam that we have all taken out of sea crafts from under the deck. The original sea crafts when they were built had dry floatation foam, dry plywood cored decks and transoms. The boat had a good reputation back then also. Also when I am taking weight out of a boat it means I can add some glass and resin to a few weak areas I normally find. Then we have the self bailing floor height factor and how little freeboard to the gunnels do we want when some have to raise the floor 3 inches because of a 4 stroke going on the back. I have not ever seen a boat that was too light once an owner finds space for all the things he thinks he needs on the boat that almost never get used. I have to ad both my self and the owner of the boat fish big tuna and use one of those new big soft jig and gear bags that can carry more then we will ever need that day but seem to weigh the the portable bag down carrying weight too much. So we have a heavy portable ballast we can place strategically. Sorry for getting long winded here but just like human beings boats weight is always easier adding not subtracting.

I'd bet that boat is gonna run it's arse off, especially in a sea. Like a stone skipping across the top of the water. I'm sure it won't beat itself into the next wave coming off of one wave. Between that and the bracket it's gonna reach for the next wave much better and tend to keep that pretty, low freeboard bow at the right attitude for more circumstances. I'd personally almost always rather have a lighter boat and manipulate weight than have one that's inherently more glued to the water. Different boats for different folks.

Me I like the weight of the plywood. Definatly a difference from what I have seen riding in the ocean. I wish at times I had more weight and bigger tabs to keep the boat in the water.
It seems these composites work good for transoms, but for the floor it seems not to hold screws for the t-top and console very good. They strip out easily and get wollerded out over time. Especially if you tighten them down.

BTW i love that crown in the transom. Are you going to keep the liner out the back part of the boat? How do you plan to run the cables and wires to and through the transom?

That is later for the cable run to the OB on the bracket
 

On the plywood difference? I have worked on a few regulators and they have probably the best general ride reputation out there. Yes I did find a little plywood where they said there was none?? But not much. and used for stupid things. I even took pictures of it and the balsa wood deck rotted out on a 03 I believe regulator. Maybe it was an 01.

on the controls to the OB
If I get a chance I will post pictures of my boat with the same set up.

On the penske board holding screws yes it is a bit weak in that area. It makes a little more work but after fitting and drilling all hinges and hardware before painting I drill out bigger and refill all screw holes with epoxy and filler . Then redrill small again and install screws that will then have no trouble staying put. There are only two things I do not like about penske coosa board. holding screws . Which I know how to remedy. And the little glass fibers in the foam are a pain in the arse to work with, with out gloves and dust mask. Other then that? I have found it is a product made for boats after my friend cut it on his water jet table and I found no water signs after!!! They claim that if a plain sheet with No resin in the pours of the surface were emersed in water for an extended time?? It can only absorb 5 % of its weight. I will bet a 4x8 sheet of 3/4 is not even 25lbs.. So maybe a one and a third pound gain possible in the worse case. I have handled a lot of 3/4 wet plywood and it probably doubles in weight when wet. Maybe more.

How much does a 4x8 sheet of 3/4 Coosa cost?

Dave

Cost is for sure relative or cheaper then good marine plywood
 

a little less then 200 a sheet. It seems to never loose its shape as far as if you store it not perfectly flat. It always stays dimensionally the same even when stored on edge leaning against the wall. Try that with plywood. It will not crush either. I drove my diesel truck over a piece with one 1708 on each side and it did not crush like balsa or divinycel does if you use it where cleats go and pull the bolts down tight.

Thats a pretty good idea using the epoxy. I was goin to use some of that stuff for my floor but did some samples and just could not see it being as strong.
The 3/4 okume i used was about $70/sheet. 3 sheets for the floor and 2 for the transom.
Thats about $350 for okume which is used in about all your custom carolina boats. The stuff will never rot, properly treated. Yeah maybe 30 years down the road you may have to address it.
And about $1000 for composite sheets.
Thats alot of money. But if money is no object, then hey.

About how much freeboard are you going to have at the transom?

That's not too bad. Is that for the Bluewater 20 or 26? Thinking of materials for my next project.
Dave

It's a bit more cost, and plywood; marine or not, when using epoxy is tried and true but new wood alternatives are getting used in all kind of stuff. You just have to put more thought into screws, bolts. The other thing is the cost would be so much more seen when doing it yourself. When having someone else do the work, well let's just say," labor is gonna be a bit more.". I think of all the foam core, coosa, penske and balsa, on some high end customs, wow! Skim coatings of s-glass, whole composite salon houses, composite bulkheads.

It is 18 inches at the transom but on the side at the original cap. What is a standard C craft freeboard on the side? Now that it will be a 3 piece construction instead of the original 2 piece that did not allow you to lean against the inside gunnel before your toes and feet hit first. Not to argue your use of Okume plywood if done properly. But did you factor in the cost of epoxy and time!! involved compared to using either cheaper vinylester or even much cheaper polyester resin with penske board. Also the glass is much more expensive. 1708 or even mat that is not stitch mat or even binder that will dissolve with epoxy is very hard to find and is always more money. the 20 grade is more then enough for decks. The guy that supplies me with the penske board used to repair the decks of the commercial fishing boats that have a non steel deck out of barnegat light. He perfected the use of penske over formerly plywood with a longer life then the wood that was used before.

20. I have used the 26 but it is almost never needed anymore.
 

the decks the 20 is more then enough.One more thing to ad in using penske over okume plywood. To bond properly to wood you should use a thinner viscosity epoxy and always put a resin coat on first. With the penske it will bond with polyester or vinylester resin with out the wet out coat process and time.

Yeah just polyester resin and 1708 is all I have used on my last two boats. Used epoxy for fillers and what not.
I believe its 20" on 20sf and 24" on MA. We were able to pull the cap up alittle and get some more freeboard. I had raised my floor a total of 5" from top of factory to top of new floor and was about to pull the cap up another 1" so I still have 20" at the stern. Your right about the liner for the back. Definatly will feel alot wider.
I kinda wish I would have splurged and maybe done a composite transom on my last MA cause 30-40lbs in the rear of these boats is actually alot.

On Okume plywood you used polyester resin? That is a no no.
 

Okume is mostly a certified void free water proof glue mahogany plywood and the polyester resin will not have a very good bond because of the natural oils in this wood and teak also. There are some boat builders in North carolina doing those big plywood carolina flair jig boats with a skin of vinylester resin and glass. But that is still controversial . None would ever think of using polyester resin. Most still use epoxy and nothing less. All use epoxy still to bond one piece of wood to another piece of wood.
MA is one of those higher caps right. what year did they start with the higher cap? If I have 18 then that is good. I raised the floor 2 inches mostly because this boat will be fished hard sometimes looking for big tuna. That is why he wanted a full transom and a bracket to make the boat less scary when waves can splash against the transom while fighting a big tuna. His other boat is a big! center console. A 39 sea vee.

... maybe he could use the big boat as a mother ship and tow the 20 out to the canyons .. all joking aside, looks great, thats going to be some custom rig when done...Bruce and I may take a ride over to see it first hand some time today if you dont mind....

Joe R.
20ft Classic SeaCraft
Susie II

Bly - good to see you hear. I rarely participate on this board because I have a Bertram20 project, not a Seacraft, but the restorations here are outstanding.

I exclusively used Coosa board on my Bertram for transom and sole replacement.

One thing I found I needed to do was clean the coosa very well or lightly scuff sand then clean with solvent and put a nice flood coat of resin to make sure I got a good bond.

Curious if you have any tips on proper preparation. I also used vinyl ester exclusively, although next time I think I will save some cash and only use vinyl for secondary bonding and not for panel layups.

Looking forward to the progress.

I think I posted this link before, but here is a link to me stalled project.

http://simplifying.net/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=1028

Ian as far as preparation. I have never thought it needed a wet out coat like wood.??
 

I did do some test even tho my supplier had a lot of hands on experience before being talked into opening a small whole sale supply shop. I was also told by others that some of the best new england old school custom boat builders were incorporating his use and techniques into their builds of coosa and penske board. Many of them have molds to very pretty new england lobster style boats. were building the hull in glass and almost everything else in plywood with epoxy. Now many switching away from wood. The wood process does need a hot coat because it is very pourus and if you lay up the glass normally and just wet out the wood with normal layup resin it will be soaked into the wood pours and possibly cause a dry layup under the first layer. Most that use epoxy, use only a standard west system that is so thick that the primary epoxy bonding is doing most of the work. I use a thin epoxy and thicken mine when needed for any use. On my penske coosa board I have been using vinylester resin because of its superior properties compared to GP polyester resin. For less then $10 dollars a gallon more then GP. No I do not buy it in gallon cans. So it pays in my thoughts for the small increase. On the wet out coat.or hot coat. and letting that dry first and sepparately? It is not needed like wood. A fact is that No boat builders that use normal low density divinycel foam for cores do a hot coat. that foam is very pourus also. penske coosa is not pourus. the resin will not be absorbed into the board and cause a dry coat underneath. It can only absorb less then 5% of its weight in liquid in the best situation because of the uniformity density. I will reiterate one more time that the hot coat is so your resin does not run out of the glass into the wood and cause a later delamination of the glass because of lack of resin directly under it. It wont happen with penske coosa. I see no reason not to use polyester resin if you want. Me I will stay with vinylester resin. I may try some here and there on a console type work only for personal testing incase vinylester resin was not available or rose in cost? On prep the dust is a pain in the arse and I usually cut my board in front of a high speed fan in front of the open garage door. Or i put the horses outside when nice and use the wind to blow the dust away from me. Then I usually blow the dust off the board before using or bringing back in. That is my prep. Ian I just re reviewed your progress. . Great work you did. I never realized the 20 bertrams had a curved transom and that small pie sliced bumpout for the out drive. What a pain huh.

Clarification on my part... I never let the coat of resin cure. I found that by flooding the coosa with resin then laying down the 1708 it was easier to get complete wetout. I also found that the surface of the coosa would have the occasional area of bubbles or what might be called porosity that I wanted to make sure was completely filled.

Stuff does itch though. That's for sure!

Ian.

Very good. That is what I do also. You are way ahead of the curve .
 

And beautiful work for a hobby. Very professional and researched.. What stage are you in now on the bertram? There is a 20 bertram CC all done over with a bracket that I have seen in my travels towing my boat to NC andf back a few times. What a beautiful little CC it is! I always loved the bertram lines . Must be close since the last post months ago. I was getting a bit confused? is the boat still in michigan or Jakarta Indi.? I know you do work over there right. Good luck Ian on hitting the finish line. sometimes the last 10% never seems to go fast enough? Why?Jay

Thanks for the compliments, but I did the easy stuff. The real skill is Ryan at RCS Yachtrefinishers. He is one who will make the boat look amazing.

I moved to Jakarta for work and will be here for about 3 years minus the 4 months I have already been here.

I am really struggling with what to do for engine package. I keep going back and forth about buying a new package now and avoiing the catalytic converters or waiting until I get back an have something new off the shelf.

I made a comment to my wife the other day that if whe was going to buy a hand knotted persian rug that I was going to buy a diesel engine package. Her comment was "You're going to get a diesel anyway..." Although a Volvo D3-200 package would be pretty slick, I'm not sure it's worth the price of admission.

Keep the pictures flowing... no fiberglass for me to grind here.

Ian.

Bly........................how's that baby coming along?

Sorry. it is doing great. I had the bracket temporarily hanging back there with
 

The new transom . The new transom is all made with double penske and stitched glass with vinylester resin and gelcoat.. I made it on a super flat melamine mold table I have. The I popped the bracket out of the mold? I actually floated it out of the mold with water from a hose and a few wooden wedges. Most of the fuel tank stringer area is done and changed. along with the fuel tank base. Oh I have the new aluminum 74 gal fuel tank from S&P painted with epoxy and pigment. Rolled thick and brush tipped. No coal tar epoxy. The real stuff. I have been taking pictures just too tired to post and still getting used to my new mac pro from my old mac lap top. I will try to post pictures soon. I am almost trying not to post so I do not get on too many others nerves here. I am a bit anal in rebuilds and I do not believe aluminum tanks should be foamed in. So I guess I am just trying not to come on too strong here between my aversion to wood and now foaming in tank taboo. Sorry bruce. for not posting more pictures. I have them. I know I will be a target because of my anal boat building theories

Fiddlestix!!!

Bly, you will be yet another wonderful resource here.

When I first found my guest house here, Todd`sLures said what good is knowledge if you don`t share it. Indeed.

Bushwacker is proud of the fact that his balsa is still going strong. He is quite savvy and that is why it has lasted. When his friends were redoing the transom on their old 21 race boat, they used Coosa and epoxy. Wonder who had a hand in that?

I can`t remember seeing anyone foam in a tank either. Did you? Maybe I missed something.

Some folks have a plywood budget, and some folks don`t have a budget.

All are welcome here, as evidenced by my love of a {shhhh} Tracker. Oh, the horror.

What products do you prefer over coal tar?

See, I`m learning already.

Cheers,
Sandy

Update bracket construction and new transom . fuel tank stringer area.
 

I have a mold I made of a 23 ft sea craft bracket. I made a rough part and cut it down to fit a 20 ft boat. The transom is 2 layers of penske board a couple layers of glass and gelcoat on most of the out side. Once I leveled the boat according to the pad on the bottom and the side chines. I started the rebuild. I am going to remove the cap and forward fish box deck soon. I did not want to remove too much until I get more structure back in. I have had too many boats change shapes when I remove too much at once, no matter how much I block and support it temporarily.

http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/...0/P1010105.jpg

http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/...0/P1010107.jpg

http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/...0/P1010109.jpg

http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/...0/P1010117.jpg

http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/...0/P1010116.jpg

http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/...0/P1010132.jpg

http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/...0/P1010134.jpg

I like that you used the wider width top of the mold for the platform wings. How much did you end up sectioning out of the chamber? Out of the platform? It's coming together nicely! Thanks for updating.

Jay I feel like anyone who can walk the walk and wants to beat the drum for the way they believe something should be done, should do it. CSC has a ton of people who obviously know boats really well. It seems, even most of the less experienced have the aptitude to tackle anything they would need to do to keep their SC up to snuff. Everyone has a different level of expertise, expierence, & budget. The short time I've been on here there isn't the BS of some of the other sites & none of the rudeness. There is a core of people here who know SC's inch by inch, year by year. If someone disagrees on CSC with what someone else believes in, or can offer another point of view their is validity to it. If someone looks clueless, someone on here is gonna set them back on the path. I like it on here you can have some disagreements on things and people usually substantiate their argument well. Realistically there's almost always more than one way to do something, some things have little margin for error though.

CSC's must have been amazing when they first came out back in the day. The first time seeing that pretty hull running, I couldn't imagine. In my mind, the 20' and 23' are my two favorite hulls in their respective sizes as an all around boat. When it comes to an SC, the cost against, status, aesthetics, quality, & performance is rarely matched. People who don't get these boats I usually don't get, lol. I also believe that they can be improved or personalized for each persons' goal. Most everyone seems like a regular person on here, smart regular people with really nice boats that believe in their work and experience just like you and me.

Keep the updates coming!

I agree with Sandy and workinpr0gress. ClassicSeacraft.com ain't like the other forums. Folks may agree to disagree with your methods, but they aren't going to criticize you for how you choose to restore your own boat. Most of the people here have good manners. If they slip, a little reminder is usually all it takes to get them to play nice again. So keep the pics and descriptions coming. We all have something to learn, and the more ideas and methods we can see, the better.
Dave

Looking good, keep the pics coming. :) :) :)

I am glassing the transom in today. it is all good and ready finally.
 

I doubled the 1/2 in. penske with Biaxial glass between and staggered the tigh in points to the old stringers. I also will glass the penske outside with biaxial glass tied into the hull bottom and bracket. I also made the transom on a sheet of melamine with 2 layers of penske 1/2 inch with biaxial in between and multiple layers of biaxial on out side. I also after many dry fit ups glassed the transom cap and coaming while up side down on waist high horses. Then removed the many screws and clamps. Very light but strong and stiff transom. I could lift it many times in and out for fit ups with out straining.

this was saturday morning before I put every thing back together for real.
http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/...0/P1010004.jpg
http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/...0/P1010002.jpg

Here is the transom that I was able to glass under the covering board gunnel with out using anti gravity effect
http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/...0/P1010003.jpg

http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/...0/P1010007.jpg

http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/...P1010001-1.jpg
Notice the flat pad of the bracket to match the flat pad on the 20 hull.
http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/...P1010002-1.jpg
http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/...P1010003-1.jpg
The bracket is 26 inches back to front.

all in a days work
 

Awesome job! From what I see your doing a great job. I also am redoing a 1973 20 footer and wonder when using a bracket on the back would it help to incorperate knees from the stringer system to help minimize flexing when trailering or in rough sea's? I'm not as far along as you are, I've just ran out of epoxy when I finished glassing in my first layer of 1708 on the inside of the transom. I'll wait till after Christmas to start up again.

Bill

Looking good, I definitely like it tied into the stringers. I gotta come check it out.

the 20 is coming along. The gunnels and forward deck fish box area is removed
 

after I had the transom all glassed in and the boat shape stabilized. I could not believe some of the features that are possible with a one level deck on a 20 ft sea craft.
http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/...0/P1010017.jpg

http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/...0/P1010018.jpg

Here is the new old console highly modified with a coffin feature in front and a built in electronics area.
http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/...0/P1010036.jpg

The side lower part is made for standard 30 degree rod holder.
http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/...0/P1010038.jpg
The coffin will have a live well and ice chest or small fish box also. all above deck. Then I ended up with a 60 + inch long x 24 inch wide and at deepest I think it was 18inches? under the deck tuna fish box. No it won't fit a giant.

A friend bought a 20' SeaCraft a couple of years ago, not sure of the year say 2009, and it's got a flat floor. Just too cool!! I really like the coffin modification.

Outstanding work. Cant wait to see the boat when its all said and done. I'm certain its going to be awesome!