How does the Sceptre shed big water over the bow ?
 

Been reading all about the excellent rough water performance with the 23' Sceptre.

I figure it's more seaworthy than the CC version, because waves over the bow likely to be deflected by the cuddy .

Anyone take any over the bow of the Sceptre, and if water made it all the way over, do the drains clear the water well ?

Does water leak into the cuddy when a wave comes over the bow ?

Like to know how these boats handle worst case conditions.........

I've got a 23' Sceptre and it is a very dry and seaworthy vessel. MUCH dryer than it's CC sistercraft. VERY rarely have I taken water over the bow AND winshield in the 35 years I've had the boat. If the waves go over the bow they are generally deflected to the sides by the windshield. Some water can leak through the seams and joints in the windshield though.

On the otherhand, the ride at the forward helm can be more jarring and is generally worse than on the CC that has the helm significantly more aft on the boat. BUT you definately pay for that more comfortable ride with more spray (wetter) on the CC. Spray rails seem to help this condition on the CC but it is still significantly wetter than the Scepter imho.

The raised cap near the front helm station on the Sceptre also directs the spray/water over the edge of the cap back into the ocean much better than the CC configuration.

Most small boats have inadequate scuppers. If you look at comm. rides you will see many differences. I have always thought many small boats could benefit from Moesly`s design by crossssing the hoses.

Cheeers,
Us

When you step in the starboard, the egress is to port. Pure Genious. Acme mail order.

I am somewhat behind the curve. Ask of those of us who know more than I.

I've only had one occasion were I took water all the way over the windshield of my 23' Tsunami, and I took several over the top. Caught in a thunderstorm offshore 'cuz I was literally napping with a fishing rod in my hand. I took absolutely no water into the cabin, but everyone out on the deck splashed!
Steep seas of 5'-6', with a very short 3-4 second wave period, driving SW into the storm to get to Boynton Inlet. Running at displacement speed of about 6-7 mph. 90% of the water was deflected off to the sides, but a couple of bucketfuls came over the top several times. Each time, the nose seemed to bury itself at least 8"-10" below the crest of the wave. The boat tracked true, without being pushed off to either side, and I had no problem with handling.
Truly a great boat.

I used to take water over the bow regularly on my sceptre. The water comes right over the windshield like a waterfall. You can see it coming. It drains out the back no problem. Mine is an 85. I also would take spray in the face regularly because the helm was right in the spray zone. I have since modified my boat. Got rid of the windshield and built a command bridge. Much much dryer. I fish in Hawaii where it is windy and rough most days so my situation may be different from others.

You sound like a guy I need to discuss this with further - with send a PM to your contact info.

PM sent. I also moved my center fuel tank about 10 inches aft and this helped keep the bow up and now the spray gets thrown out and to the side much better as well. I run a Volvo 165 diesel and suspect the previous owner may have moved the tank forward just a tad to accommodate a large D battery fwd of the engine box.

never had any water on the deck up there - if are getting any you should have headed in sooner - per Frank LOL

Talking the real deal here - getting caught in rough seas and how this 23' handles - from guys who've been there.

The boat will handle more than the operator, I have been soaked to the bone several times been out when I should have been home. I have always felt safe, never taken one over the bow but have gone from 30 to 0 in a big roller up in the panhandle not seeing it in the inlet.

Tow Boat Cape Coral (Don't know his user name) could probably give you the best response. I've heard straight from the Captain that when it gets dicey he would rather be on his 23 than the other bigger boats. I know for a fact that his 23 has been on some damn tough rescues.

He runs twin 135 Mercs, or atleast he did.

Maybe you should be looking for a rare Moesly 21! It's pretty hard to get water over a deck that's about 5' off the water!

Here's an excerpt from a recent e-mail from a good friend of mine that bought one that was on display at the 1965 Miami boat show:

". . .When I still had the original 230 cu. in. straight six Chev Mercruiser @ 150 h.p. I crossed to West End once in 8’-10’ at 2600 PM. Took 5 hrs. but NOTHING rides like that 21 – NOTHING ! – Carl’s “secret” was the patented Variable Deadrise. There was a 23 Allmand with me. Every time I looked back to check on him, either his bow was submerged or he was airborne! Like I say – NOTHING ! – Once, returning to FL with Everett I took a 20 ft. “rogue” wave when the USCG stopped us “out in the middle.” Beth was hysterical for about 10 min. or so. Every time I see the film, “The Perfect Storm” I have a flashback to that incident. I just had time to tell Beth: “HANG ON !” But, we took it. -- I could see “daylight” through the rim of the wave. It was just about to “break.” USCG guys who finally boarded my boat to look for drugs, said: “Yeah, we saw it. – That was a BIG wave!”

NEVER – not EVER did I take a wave over the bow of that boat – and I went out in ALL kinds of weather when I first came down here.

Until Craig taught me: “Bob, it’ll still be here next weekend – we’re goin’ home.” I was afraid the Gulf Stream might leave! After that, my rule was: With my eyeballs 6 ft. above sea level, if I can’t see what’s right in front of me, I don’t belong out there ! – Another “rule” was, if a wave came over the side and over the gunwale into the cockpit– we’re outa’ here !

Once I lost a STUPID diver out there in 10 -- 12 ft. seas, and went to USCG to help find him. They paid Carl Moesly and the 21 the HIGHEST compliment EVER ! – The USCG Bos’n asked me if we wanted to go in my boat or their 28 ft. boat. I could tell he was scared, but I said I lacked the proper radio equip. to commo w/their chopper. We went out, but no sign of the idiot. CG chopper found him later, hanging onto the channel marker at the L.W. Inlet."

Bob may be a little biased after running that boat for 29 years and literally wearing out about 4 engines, but he has more experience with it than anyone else I know of, including about a hundred Bahama trips. He's definitely "been there, done that"! Denny

What's the boat all about ? Where produced ? How's the ride in short steep 3'4's ? Pound?

Last built in the '60s and quite hard to find one today.

The Moesly 21 is the grandaddy of all SeaCrafts, the very first production model, designed and built by Carl Moesly in Miami in the early 60's. Many stock 21's were raced in the very rough Offshore Power Boat races in the 60's with twin I-6 Mercs, totally dominating the outboard class and often beating many of the bigger inboards running 1000 HP! Check out Carla's Moesly SeaCraft site for more info, http://www.moeslyseacraft.com/21-seacraft.html. Be sure to also check out the Stock Boats section under the Racing tab.

Although deadrise at the transom is about the same as the 23, the steps are much deeper and deadrise in the forward sections of the hull are much deeper than the 23, very similar to the 25' Seafari. As a result it's probably one of the best riding of all the SeaCraft models, except maybe for the 25' Seafari, with it's 24.5 degree deadrise at the transom.

Bob made many crossings to the Abaco's across the shallow Little Bahama Bank which is notorious for short steep square waves. Many 23's made that trip with him, but he said every time the seas got over about 3', the guys with the 23's would start calling on the radio, asking him to slow down! (And he didn't run that fast, typically cruising about 20 kts.) I've ridden in both the 21 and the 23, and I'd pick the 21 over the 23 anytime! It's ride is amazingly soft and I'd never worry about it pounding. Notice that you ride up forward SITTING DOWN, which to me is the true test of a good riding boat! That design would never work if it pounded! Riding in the back of a boat, standing up behind a CC with your legs absorbing all the shock, is not nearly as good a test of it's riding qualities!

It's definitely a rare boat - Carla thinks less than 200 were built. Only CSC members McGillicuddy, Island Trader and 3rd Day have Moesly 21's. Brian (3rd Day) also restored one that he traded for his 27, probably has most rough water experience with the 21, and can probably give you a better first-hand testimony of it's riding quality than I can. He was so impressed with it's ride that he was talking about popping a mold off of the one he salvaged down in the Keys a couple years ago, but don't know what the status of that plan is these days. Denny

Thanks Bushwacker - a 21' that can really handle 3-4' chop should be what everyone wants. Got to wonder why that hull isn't in production. Let's get that mold and build it right - all composite materials, no wood, oversized fuel tank, fantastic floatation, exceptional drains and all through bolted hardware. Then we'll pound the crap out of it for days on end to find any weak points for re engineering. Finally, we'll sell it as the ONE boat for REAL fishermen. You in ?

Since the discussion has gotten beyond Sceptres, I'll descibe a 25 Seafari. Ride is in the same class as the 21. A rare boat, but not nearly as hard to find as the 21. It goes straight into 3-4 in the Gulf Stream with me sitting down and no desire to slow down below my normal cruise of 22-23 knts. At 5 ft, I slow down to 18 knots but still sitting down. I've run with two 30? ft Contender type CCs. They were jumping out of the water every third wave, everybody standing up in the stern, while I'm still sitting down in the middle of the boat. Last trip to Bimini was on the last day of Debbie, wind(on the beam) got up to a solid 25 knts with much higher gusts, seas got up to about 8 ftand breaking hard, lots of heavy spray coming over the bow and not a drop came in the forward hatch. Always felt totally safe and in control. I've run it in fairly large following seas and it acts like it is on rails. By far the best sea boat anywhere near its size that I have ever experienced.

I'm amazed that Potter didn't just keep building the 21 after he bought the company from Moesly, but he was never into racing, so maybe he didn't appreciate what a great sea boat it is. It's also incredibly space efficient . . . try to find another 21' powerboat with 7' bunks in it!

If you built a new one, exactly like Moesly did (with spruce stringers and plywood decks!), you wouldn't have to beat the hell out of it . . .he already did that, running WOT in 8-10' seas for 500 miles! Nothing broke, even when specially built all-out race boats were falling apart all around him! No re-engineering required because he built it right the first time! I'd build it as a dive boat with a big swim platform, which is how Bob used his (shown below), for trips like Connor takes!

Your best bet might be to look for a Seafari 25 like Connor's. There seem to be a lot more of them around than the 21. Strick just sent one to the crusher because he couldn't find a buyer that appreciated what a great boat it is!

For me, the Seafari is perfect for the type of boating I've done lately, like the S. Fla. Circumnavigation trip I took a couple of years ago. http://s188.photobucket.com/albums/z...t=69122ef0.pbw If I ever decide to sell this boat I've had for 37 years, it will be to buy one like these folks did for this adventure: http://www.integritycruise.com/

"At 5 ft, I slow down to 18 knots but still sitting down. I've run with two 30? ft Contender type CCs. They were jumping out of the water every third wave, everybody standing up in the stern, while I'm still sitting down in the middle of the boat. Last trip to Bimini was on the last day of Debbie, wind(on the beam) got up to a solid 25 knts with much higher gusts, seas got up to about 8 ftand breaking hard, lots of heavy spray coming over the bow and not a drop came in the forward hatch. Always felt totally safe and in control. I've run it in fairly large following seas and it acts "


".he already did that, running WOT in 8-10' seas for 500 miles! Nothing broke, even when specially built all-out race boats were falling apart all around him! No re-engineering required because he built it right the first time"


when i read these types of statements:

there's a big differece between 5' swells and a steep 5' short period chop...

now,with that,making claims like these is rather dangerous,people will read this,and wonder why their boat can't run these kind of speeds in 5' seas,as well as 8' seas too...

2 things boat owners rarley get right: speed of their boat,and the quality of the ride...

I would say those statments are true. Knowing that I run straight into a 3' confused chop at 25 (Conditions in Boca Grande Pass every summer afternoon ) and 25 - 30 on some winter days after a front in 4' swells. This in an 18' cc.

don't get me wrong:

i run a potter built 23 center console - i can honestly tell you,it's a great riding boat - we've ran it 100nm off the beach - read that as way east ! out in the atlantic off nj - it's a tank...one of the best small boats i've ever ran - being in the marine repair biz,i've ran them all,from mako's to venture's

but,i can tell you with no hesitation,it will NEVER run 23-25kts in a close 5' chop - NEVER !!

my old 31 BERTRAM wouldn't either,and the seacraft,it rides much better than the old BERTRAM...

i've never ran a 21' mosley,but,my experience tells me,this boat will never run over 20kts in a 8'-10' short period chop...

here's a challange:

take me out,in that 8'-10' sea - short period chop - i'll bring my handheld gps and my digital recorder..."i'm from missouri,you're gonna have to show me"...

Wave shape does make a huge difference in how big a wave the boat can run in. My comments re: 3-4 and 5 ft were the conditions I normally hit, Gulf Stream passages to the Bahamas. These waves are generally deep water wind waves on the way to becoming swells, much rougher than swells, but not as bad as what you might find in shallow water running into a big wind.

And yeah, I know the numbers look like pure bullshit, but they aren't.

Connor

running in a 3 second period 5' sea,can you run that speed ? we're talking head sea here,not following sea,or a beam sea ?

that's a 5' wave - steep wave,count 3 and you're on another one...

that's a "close" 5' sea...

again,not being argumentative,i know for a fact,my rig will NEVER run those speeds in those conditions,in a "head sea" - NEVER gonna happen...


direction the boat's traveling in is a huge factor - big beam seas,you're running in the trough - you can run at a pretty good speed,following sea,same deal - tabs up and run...quartering,head sea ? you're never gonna run those speeds in a short period 5' sea.

this is dealing with a head sea:


this is the problem when owners make claims,concerning ride in big seas-long period swells,just like i explained,are much different than a wind driven,close steep chop - read that as a wave with no"back" - i can only give my experience,what i've experienced on my rig,again,a 23 potter built center console,my rig will never run those speeds,in those conditions - never.

if the claim you're making is,you can be seated,comfortably seated,running 18-20kts,not mph,in a 3'-5' close spaced chop - again,conditions i described,i would have to witness that,to believe it...i know my 23 will never do that...

Hmmm. . . close 5 ft chop, say 5 second period, 23-25 knots. I don't think I could take it at 25 knots in my Seafari. 18 knots would work for sure. 20 standing up and not for many miles. 23 maybe, but that's a stretch, would take someone with tougher kidneys than me.

Definition of "short" is a little tricky. Short 5 footers in the Gulf Stream are 5-5.5 second period waves. Make that 4 seconds or less and I would not want to be there. Make it 6 and its almost a piece of cake.

to the last post: Don't think I made such a claim. However, 3-3.5 ft, 2 to 3 second period, straight into it, 18-20 knots, water depth about 20 ft. Done that last month, half the time sitting down. A rough ride, but the seafari will do it and within the limits of my 62 year old kidneys.

I don't think I've ever seen 5 ft of 3 second wave, certainly don't want to.

let me add something here:

yesterday - i fished a local tournament in a client's rig,a 245 everglades powered with twin 200 suzuki's.that rig rides much better than my sea craft - hurts to say that ! but it's true
i made a 22nm run @ 38mph,took just about half an hr to make that run.i seen 50+mph running down the intercoastal - it was a "shot gun start"...there was a few new 25 seacrafts in the event -honda powered,i passed them,running down the intercoastal.there were 3 mabey 4 boats ahead of us.i cleared the inlet and got passed by a fountain with trip verados.one boat was on the same "line" as us,a 34 venture.
sea conditions were a 2'-3' swell,no wind - long spaced,probably 10second...it was a southerly swell,i was running south,directly into it...

in those conditions,just about any boat will run at a good speed...

this is a shot of the garmin 4214 while running down the intercoastal,after i cleared the "traffic"...

there's a little more speed,left to be found in this rig - engines are mounted a little low...

what you're saying is,you really can't run those speeds in a short steep chop,like i described,right ?

Pelican,

My statements about wave conditions and speed in my Seafari are pretty specific. You described a case that is much rougher, bears little or no relation to my comments and then:

"what you're saying is,you really can't run those speeds in a short steep chop "

as if I had made such a claim.

You need to chill.

Connor

that's what the gentleman asked - note the words "short" and "steep" ?



this was your reply after you edited it today:

"Since the discussion has gotten beyond Sceptres, I'll descibe a 25 Seafari. Ride is in the same class as the 21. A rare boat, but not nearly as hard to find as the 21. It goes straight into 3-4 in the Gulf Stream with me sitting down and no desire to slow down below my normal cruise of 22-23 knts. At 5 ft, I slow down to 18 knots but still sitting down. I've run with two 30? ft Contender type CCs. They were jumping out of the water every third wave, everybody standing up in the stern, while I'm still sitting down in the middle of the boat. Last trip to Bimini was on the last day of Debbie, wind(on the beam) got up to a solid 25 knts with much higher gusts, seas got up to about 8 ftand breaking hard, lots of heavy spray coming over the bow and not a drop came in the forward hatch. Always felt totally safe and in control. I've run it in fairly large following seas and it acts like it is on rails. By far the best sea boat anywhere near its size that I have ever experienced.

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Last edited by cdavisdb; Today at 02:34 AM"


mr greene,being from new jersey,and also being a client of mine,he's asking about short steep chop,like we have in our area...you made a claim,i "called" you on that claim -no one "needs to chill"...if someone asks a question,they deserve a good usefull accurate answer,not a fairy tale - if you ask a question,you want an accurate answer,right ?
no need to get all bent out of shape...
there's a big difference between YOUR definition of "short",and what would apply to owner's in our area...

and i'm still very doubtfull,your boat's able to run the speeds you claimed,in the conditions you described -i know my 23 wouldn't...


as i typed previous:

boat owners rarely give accurate speed and ride information - their observations are usually very "optomistic"...

Who's a client of who ?

Interesting read about the 25' Seafarer..... a good rig to keep at a dock, but not likely trailer.

Very interesting discussion - serious fishermen using boats 25' and under know what I mean by the " holy grail " ........ a boat that won't pound easily in 2, 3, and even 4' chop, plus holds together and doesn't leak into cuddy etc.....

That Mosely sounds very interesting - seems to have been I/0 powered. Wonder how that hull would run with a modern 200 such as Opti, Etec, HPDI.....

I'd love to take one of those old Mosely's for a spin off NJ any given day when it's forecast for 2-4' chop and run around. Seafarer too.

I took my Sceptre 70 miles offshore yesterday tuna fishing.On the way home it got a little sporty and we were taking a quartering sea on the port bow.When that chine would hit a wave it would knock your teeth out so I headed straight into them and it made a world of difference.Every once in a while that big one sneaks up on you and your airborne.I was expecting that hard impact upon re entry but it never happened.Boat is amazing in a head sea.We had to zig zag all the way home though. 152 mile round trip burned 65 gal cruising at 26 mph with a 250 Suzuki.These hulls will get you offshore and back and not break the bank.

I think I'm in love ! If this pic is of the Mosely 21 - to me it's a great looking boat - bow proud, roomy, old style set up for serious salt water fishing, trolling etc. Must be extremely hard to find one now.......

The seafari 25 has an 8 ft beam and only weighs 200 lb more than the Septre. That's hull weight. It carrys more stuff, so the total weight will be more, but not hugely so. Not sure what a 21 weighs, but its got to be heavier than most 21s.

I trail my 25 long distances with an E250 van. Except when accelerating, you hardly know its back there.

I second the teeth jarring chine landing, never remembered it in the 23 cc, but your standing over or sitting in it in the sceptre, my long term plans include a side console under the aft edge of my top to improve that ride and landing. When it's rough I would rather be in the 23 cc than the sceptre for ride but cockpit space you can't beat the sceptre.

Well then - I need the 25 Seafari and the Mosely 21 !!

The Moesly 21 in that picture is the "Unohu" that my friend Bob bought at the Miami Boat Show. I've followed him for a couple thousand miles all over the Bahamas, often only a couple of boat lengths off his transom so that deep hull could knock down the seas for my smaller Seafari. Some folks thought it looked sort of ugly with that big high bow, but one ride in it would quickly change their minds!

The weight would be somewhat less than the Sceptre, but probably not more than a couple of hundred pounds. There was a LOT of glass in those boats! You're right, they were pretty scarce, even when new. It is undoubtedly the worlds BIGGEST 21 footer! The first pic below shows the Unohu rafted up at Grand Bahama next to a Formula 233 and my Seafari 20. I helped tow Skip & Carla's ex-race boat down to Key Largo, and it actually towed pretty easily with my 4200 lb V-8 Dakota, but we didn't take the turnpike since the trailer had no brakes. After looking at the last picture below, Carla said I need a bigger truck! The perspective exaggerates the size, but makes for an interesting picture. (That Seafari 20 cap inside the 21 gives you a better idea of it's size!)

Well, I think it's a great looking hull with that big front end.

Odd this boat didn't survive into current times......if it performs the way you guys report, I believe there's a specific market for this type boat.

I will let mine go...make me an offer...Oh yeah the reserve price 50k:D

Island trader may be crazy(or just kidding, 50K is way too cheap, you ain't see the boat), but you can't have my 25, at any price. They are too hard to find and the 21 isn't big enough for my use.

Connor

I'll stick with my Wellcraft V21 for now................. with longer term goal a SeaCraft of one edition or other......

I just flat out like that Mosely 21' - the idea of it, the looks, and ..........the reports on how it runs.

WAYYYYYYYYYYYY too many boat's out there that can't stand up to rough going over the long term - hulls that come apart, leaks develop, fitting open up, pound to death, etc etc....

When I want to get from point A to point B on the ocean and it's a typical 2-4' day, being able to RUN head in on a 21 footer would be awesome.

We should have Mosely 21' everywhere - so I could buy a used one at a reasonable price.

I can't think of how many times i've taken water right over bow of my 20' seafari. I'm out of scorton creek, sandwich ma cape cod and sometime the mouth of the creek gets nasty. i used to have a bimini top connected to the windshield and it was great the water would go right up and over and usually all of it landing behind the transom the rest washing right out the scuppers. i have recently ripped my top so i built a hard top now i get a little more wet, and more water lands in the back of the boat cause the top isn't there to deflect it a little farther. but it still goes right through those waves like a champ. if not used to it ya it may make you nervous but it does it's job and keeps on going hell its a 71 seacraft remember lol :) and yes the hatch leaks a little when that happens but i could probably seal it better but it doesn't bother me. A little advise though make sure the hatch is locked. One time i made a huge mistake cause it wasn't latched and a wall of water went right through the cabin like a waterfall. But it all still drained out the back eventually. Good luck