Best riding SeaCraft model ?
 

Is it the 23' Sceptre or bigger model ?

The extremely rare Mosely 21' that the original SeaCraft founder built before Potter ?

Riding defined as overall ocean performance - chop, rough conditions etc......

I own a 23 but would have to vote for the original 21 even though I've never seen one in person Nevermind been out in one

23 Sceptre

If you exclude Moesly's 8' beam 27-30' race only hulls, I'd vote for the Seafari 25 because of it's 25.5 degree deadrise combined with 8' beam as best, followed by the Moesly 21, which has virtually the same hull bottom forward as the 25, then a Moesly 27 Seamaster due to shear mass and waterline length, and then the Sceptre/Tsunami 23.

All depends on the conditions but I guess longer, more beam and weight will always win unless you are looking to go fast and shallow.

I'm at a disadvantage cause I've never ridden in a 23, but my 25 seafari is so much better than any deepV 23-24 ft boat I've ever been in that I would not be surprised if it is the best riding. That includes going into a sea and any other angle I've experienced, seas up to a steep 8 ft+, 5 ft going directly into it. The boat is just amazing, never feels uncertain, no matter how nasty it gets.

At rest, it rolls more than I would like, more than a 24 degree deadrise Seabird, a bit less than a 23 formula/Albermarle, but doesn't seem to ever have the snap roll(thank the good Lord) that will get you in a Formula.

Hey Denny, every time I walk up to Skip and Carla's place and see their 21'er with the "knife" front entry I can't imagine a SeaCraft that would ride better than that!! Maybe someday, before I die, they will finish it and take me for a ride.......hint, hint!!!! :)

inboard powered 23 center console - that's my choice for best riding sea craft

We need to have a glassin` and riggin` party.

Carl`s SeaMaster was his fave. A pearl.

I`m remaining small and underwater.

Had a nice two tank dive.
Cheers,
GFS

When I quit trailering and finally keep a boat / slip - the 25' Seafari is one I'll be looking for.
Need twins or single outboard fine ? ( I don't like IO's for saltwater sue )
Thanks for the reply.

More length and weight always help, but LESS beam (= less lift) and more deadrise (= less lift) will always create a softer ride, although a deep narrow hull will tend to be a bit tipsy at rest as Connor mentions. (Connor has accumulated a lot of "seat time" from years of dive trips in rough seas on many different boats, so his comments about a boats ride and handling are well founded and worth listening to!)

The first picture below is that "knife edge" view of Island Trader's 21 that Don sees in Skip & Carla's boat! Easy to see why that hull rides so well in a chop or steep head seas!

The next picture is a neat comparison of the Moesly 21 and Seafari 25 hulls that that CSC member Big Fluke put together. Notice how similar the deadrise is up forward, between stations 14 and 18! He hasn't posted much but he's a naval architect that owns both a Moesly 21 and 3 Seafari 25's, one of which has been converted to a CC. His company has done many studies and tests of small boat performance in rough seas for the US Navy, and he said the Seafari 25 is the most sea-kindly hull they have ever tested!

The last pic is a bow shot of a 23 Sceptre. Not quite the same angle as that 21 shot, but I see a lot of flat surfaces that aren't there on either the 21 or 25. It's undoubtedly a drier riding boat than the 21, but those flat surfaces will create more lift that definitely won't help the ride. That may explain why my friend that ran his 21 to the Bahamas for 27 years said that the many 23's that crossed with him always had trouble keeping up with him whenever the seas got over 3-4'!

Hate to say it, but I suspect that the 25 Seafari would not like outboards, especially twins. Center of gravity, both vertical and fore and aft, argues against outboards. The boat likes weight forward; otherwise it doesn't take the sea as well and wants to hobby horse. outboards have the opposite effect, shifting weight aft. Big tabs help, but its not the same as having the CG forward. The boat is also tippy compared to some deepVs (almost certainly the Septre as well) Outboards raise the CG and make the tendency to roll much worse. As noted above the inboard 23 CC rides great. Engine position gives that boat a very low and forward CG. That's why it rides so well. I've thought about reconfiguring the seafari for a single inboard, but can't figure out how to do it and keep good cabin access.

You might want to rethink 1/0s and keep the 25 on a trailer.

I salivate every time I see that comparison of the 21 and 25. The 25 is near perfect for me, but the idea of having a 21 stretched to 25 would be even better, maybe a whole lot better. it ought to ride just as well, maybe even better and be a lot more stable at rest.

There aren't many times when I really wish I had a whole lot more money, but this is one of them.

The "dry ride" issue is really interesting. I gather the 21 is a bit wet. From experience, the 25 is incredibly dry, even though it sure doesn't look like it should be. No idea what the difference is.

That Mosely 21 hull design is very interesting.....

I'm trailering a Wellcraft V21 now - very easy to handle at the ramp, spacious fishing room and - most importantly - decent ride with the trim tab. Eliminated the pounding in 3' seas.'

Later I plan to move up a notch...... as in likely years later, and have long admired the older SeaCrafts. The Sceptre as example of high sided, very roomy classic looking boat.

Looking at the lines of the two boats(I do this a lot), the seafari is more cutaway forward and deeper aft. In theory(I think) that should make it ride better in a following sea, up to a point. After that point, less buoyancy in the bow of the 25 might get to be a problem. It can look down right spooky when the bow sinks deep into the next wave. Never has felt anything other than rock solid.

Questions for Denny:

Did the 21 ever feel like it was trying to steer by the bow (and broach) in a big, steep following sea with the boat running a bit faster than the waves?

In the same conditions, did the bow ever sink so deep into the wave in front that it looked or felt spooky?

Connor

Under certain sea conditions my 23' did & I had to back off the throttle a bit but less now that it is bracketed :)

From what I gather, the 21 was the first love. Really steeep.

Hunt had the 31.

Neat times.

Fast and nothing but the pad and tabs in the water.

I'll forward your questions to Bob, as I've never ridden in the 21 under those conditions.

On my first return from the Bahamas, we had a north wind crossing the Gulf Stream with steep 6-8' breaking seas, but he didn't seem to have any trouble with them. The seas were so steep and close together that I was a little worried about sticking my Seafari's bow into the back of the next wave and pitch-poling, so I'd pull the throttle back as I approached them! You're right, it's a little spooky when the bow sinks clear up to the rub rail in the next wave, but it always seemed to have plenty of buoyancy and I never had any water over the deck, although I'm sure it could happen if you run a little too fast. Bob said that boat NEVER ever showed any signs of wanting to broach, and he said the best way to run a nasty inlet with it was simply WOT! Those vertical steps are so tall on that hull that the "multiple keel" effect probably does a good job of preventing any tendency to yaw or broach.

I understand where you're coming from with those questions though, as I've had those same thoughts myself about the deep forefoot on the 21 vs. the cutaway on the 21. Moesly designed the 25 Seafari and the 25-30' race boats, which have very similar lines, after many hundreds if not thousands of racing miles in the 21, so I'm sure he thought it was an improvement. It would reduce wetted surface, so it probably helps speed in racing conditions. A lot of modern go-fast boats seem to have that same cutaway. He also eliminated the outer, low deadrise panels on the race boats, probably because they would be clear out of the water anyway at racing speeds, and you also wouldn't want the extra lift on re-entry after going airborne off a big wave either! However the deep forefoot on the 21 increases it's waterline length and probably softens the ride at more moderate speeds. Denny

Is the 25 Seafari an inboard only rig ?

As built, the 25 Seafari always had I/0s, always twin 6 cylinders, I think. A single 350 1/0 works great(what I have). I've seen various conversions to single and/or twin outboards, but never talked to anyone who ran one. Never seen an inboard model, that would almost certainly require changing the cabin.

Thanks, Denny.

Many suggest I/O's to be hard to maintain in salt water environment - how's it been with your boat ?

Carl (Moesly) once said " a bigger boat will be better than a smaller one" but foot for foot I like the "21".

I've ridden in every production SeaCraft hull made from 18' to 27' from 1967 to 1988, EXCEPT the 21' and the mysterious 27' SeaVette, (which I would love to find the money to raise the one sunken in Africa).
Hands down the best ride was the 25' Seafari with twin 165hp sterndrives. Absolutely amazing boat!
Next best was the 27' Seamaster owned by the Royal Bahamian Defense Force that was converted to twin transom-mounted 275hp V8 Evinrudes.
That was only slightly better than my neighbor's '74 23' Tsunami (Scepter) with twin 140 Mercury OBs, or the '75 23' SF with inboard tunnel-drive, which two hulls I rate about even.
Even the 18' Seacraft is better than many 21'-23' boats, by far.

Interesting - questions about the Seafari with twin IO's ...
1. I/O's in salt water use ? Did SeaCraft do anything special -I/O's and salt usually don't mix too well.
2. Fuel economy with those twin 165's ?
3. Fuel tank size and range ?

Sent you a PM

Music to my ears Father Frank, good info, thanks

On I/0s in salt water: Up north, with short seasons, apparently you can get away with leaving them in the water for the season. At least, so I'm told. I would not have an I/0 kept in the water year round in Florida, not even a Volvo.

On a trailer or lift is a different story. I'm a fan of the I/0. It does have more maintenance than a modern outboard and you do have to be fairly anal about maintenance. but it usually rides better, normally has better torque, you can work on the engine yourself and that old car engine will warn you before it quits, if you are listening. The key is good maintenance. Do that and an I/0 is an extremely reliable system.

Specifically on my boat(s): In 35 years, I've had 4(all volvos) and changed an engine in one of them. Never had a serious failure offshore. Total significant repairs on the drives, 2 bad u-joints (both definitely my fault), one tilt mechanism(0000H are those little parts expensive), one set of power trim cylinders, and a leaky lower seal on one I just bought. That could have been VERY expensive if I had not caught it before any damage was done. Everything except the trim cylinders an the tilt mechanism was bad maintenance, or(the engine) bad advice from a mechanic who was supposed to know what he was doing, but didn't.

Fuel economy: varies a heck of a lot, not sure why. Light load, 3 kmpg. Heavy load, around 2 kmpg. That's with a single 5.7, TB fuel injection, volvo duoprop. Tankage, 100 gallons, figure about 93 usable.

Owner Testamonies on Moesly 21 Seaworthiness
 

Bob's reply follows. A pic of him and his 21, the Unohu, is attached below. He's truly an "old salt", a veteran of WWII and Korea, who taught a scuba course like a Marine DI - his students called him Der Fuher and referred to it as a "Scuba Survival" course, i.e., if you survive his knocking off your mask and turning your air off during the "ditch & don exercise" and don't drown, you pass! He's now 84, nearly the same vintage as Carl Moesly, but still follows a daily exercise routine that would kill many younger guys! I also asked him if he'd ever taken green water over the bow of the 21. Another friend and fellow P&W engineer also owned a Moesly 21 named the Osage. (My Seafari belonged to his dad, who bought it new! Lots of Pratt engineers were SeaCraft fanatics back in the day!) The Osage was going out Jupiter inlet one morning in flat seas when all of a sudden a huge wave appeared just as he was approaching the bar outside the inlet, and it broke over his bow! Turns out a supertanker had gone by and was about 5 miles south of the inlet by the time his wake hit the beach! Here are Bob's comments:
"Hi, Denny --

The ONLY time I ever had “green water” come over the bow was apparently when I hit that same standing wave that the Osage hit coming out Jupiter Inlet. The water was "Zamboni" smooth, when I looked up to see this 4 ft. wave in front of me. (Note: freeboard at bow on 21 is 4'10", so wave had to have been bigger than that! -DB) I hit it "square on" and slowed speed so we would not pitch. Instead, we went "through" it ! – Other than that single “freak” wave, we never took water over the bow, even in 8-12 ft. seas. The highest compliment the UNOHU ever received was when a STUPID diver got lost from my anchor. I went to USCG Station at Peanut Is. and requested help finding him. (in 12 – 15 ft. seas !) – (When Bob first moved down here from Orlando, he was afraid the Gulf Stream might “go away”, so went diving every weekend regardless of weather!)

Anyway, the CG Petty Officer asked me if we should go out in my boat or theirs ! – I told him I didn’t have UHF Aviation Freq. to link with their chopper, so he agreed to take their 32 footer. – He was scared out there! – He did teach me one thing though, about the bank just north of LW Inlet off Singer Island. He said: “In that kind of sea, you need to keep her off shore outside that red marker “or it will flat kick your ass !” – I used to warn Everett about it, and typically he would ridicule my concern and go inside to show off. One day he was towing another boat and they BOTH got their asses kicked REAL GOOD !

Beth and I took a 20 ft. wave "Perfect Storm" style out in the Middle one day returning from Bahamas and stopped by USCG. Beth was hysterical about 15 min. It was a rough day and took them 45 min. to get their inflatable launched to motor over and look in TWO of my hatches ! One was a "Glove Compartment" on the transom. I remarked about the brevity of their search and they answered: "We can tell by the way you act." I expressed objection to sitting out there and getting that 20 footer. One of the CG’s said: “That WAS a big wave.” What REALLY disgusted me was here is this 80 ft. Cutter, with the gunwales lined with crewmen standing at “Port Arms” with rifles and AR-15’s, etc.

Sea water came over the transom of Everett's boat (21' Wellcraft Nova) while three USCG guys stood in the stern deck of his boat. A sick girl was lying on the deck in 6 in. deep water. I protested to Senators and Congressman. USCG claimed we were suspicioned because “Nobody but smugglers would cross in seas like that.” – OKAY – If I were a smuggler, I would cross with the “civilian week-end warriors” on smooth days !” – I was PISSED ! – An Admiral gave me some s _ _ t about the incident. I told him the CG skipper sitting on the bridge with his coffee on that 80 footer had NO idea of my situation in that sea. I said I formerly considered the CG my friend. Now I had to regard them as another hazard to face crossing the already occasionally hostile Gulf Stream. Everett and his pal, Van, ridiculed me for being so upset. They were to the “shore side” of the USCG cutter and never saw that 20 ft. wave. Everett has for decades been one of – if not – my best friend. But, there are times when he can be a real pain in the ass.

Never broached UNOHU; although, it is possible to broach and/or “pitch-pole” almost ANY boat in certain inlets, if the helmsman is unaware of the proper way to execute the entry with a strong following sea. Orlando Power Squadron Course (Still have the Book !) taught us to avoid the “Nantucket Sleighride” by climbing up the back of a wave and following it into smooth water. That means: “He who hesitates is LOST !” When you come in the inlet, you gotta’ pick a wave and GO for it ! – Ft. Pierce Inlet can be treacherous in that way -- in presence of a healthy easterly breeze against outgoing tide.

FUNN reminiscing about “back-in-the-day.” bob"

In the same e-mail I also copied CSC member 3rdDay, who owned "Black Jack", another Moesly 21. Here are his comments: "I never felt unsafe even with a rookie / first time skipper. I've heard it's almost impossible to broach the 21. I'm inclined to believe it. We've taken the boat out intentionally on very bad days. Steep fronts and backs in following seas no issues even at decent to fast speeds."

Sorry for the long post but thought y'all would enjoy these comments comments from some owners of the Moesly 21! Denny

"On I/0s in salt water: Up north, with short seasons, apparently you can get away with leaving them in the water for the season. At least, so I'm told. I would not have an I/0 kept in the water year round in Florida, not even a Volvo."

could you explain to me why ? and,what's the emphasis on ""volvo" ?

Florida is hot,fouling rate is horrible in summer, all the nooks and crannys in an I/0 are hard to properly antifoul to start with and once hard fouling critters attach, a diver can't get to all of them, lots of boats have stray current problems from their lousy maintenance, I/0s are aluminum, which can be bad news in salt water, especially warm salt water with even a little bit of electricity around, unless you are much more careful than most folks, including me. If you antifoul an drive, you better be damn certain that the applier knows not to use copper bottom paint. That happens down here waay more often than you would believe.

One doesn't have to be around very long to realize that I/0s (or outboards for that matter) don't do well kept in the water in Florida. Not to say it is impossible, just damn difficult.

Volvo: I'm not absolutely sure its true any more, but in times past, at least in Florida, there was little doubt that Volvo drives were more durable, much less likely to quit on you offshore. Volvos can be a pain, damned expensive parts, hard to find competent mechanics and sometimes the engineering is just crazy, but they are very very tough. That includes everything up through the 290 drive. I hope its still as true for the sx drive (what I have now).

Connor

outboards are aluminum,right ? outboard brackets are aluminum too,right ?
does just the aluminum from an outdrive attract these problems ?

neighboring boats - poorly maintained neighboring boats,just a florida thing too ?

in good ol' new jersey,most boats i service are in the water from april to december,that's 9 months - the water temp,it gets into the 80's here in the summer- i have quite a few clients with stern drive powered boats,in excess of 10yrs old,boats have had ZERO problems with drives,as well as hydraulics on the drives...

copper based paint,antifouling paint,on an aluminum surface is a recipe for disaster - pople often overlook this,boat mfg's often overlook this as well - it facinates me...

it's been my experience:

stern drives,the problems are often "self inflicted",meaning,lack of maintnance nothin wrong with a stern drive power system,my own sea craft's I/O powered - what's that tell ya ?

Sage advice by all.

You seem a bit hostile at times here. I/O`s work for their design. I am old and love the old Ford based Volvo B17-23 Motahs. Maybe the best `ole 4 cyl. marine app.

Connor i just got a new project reciently. A 98 Larson that overheated and the seller had the motor rebuilt. Ut it want in the bost yet. Thats when i got it
I find rhe the manifold was cracked. The owner said the impeller was disitigrated. And replaced it. I wondered why it went Sounds like it was not cetting water.
I found a corodes hole in the water passage seen in this ouc with the lower init off the water line the small round hole on the left the coroded bole above it was the culpret.
This is a sx.
http://i782.photobucket.com/albums/y...1341DB1C90.jpg

looks to me,like that drive was not pulled for a long time ?

those drives should be pulled yearly - if it was,that corrosion could've been addressed,prior to any damage to the engine...

take a good look at the bellows - odds are,these are gonna require replacement...

inside the boat,there's an exhaust pipe - the down tubes from the risers connect to this,inside,there's a pair of shutters,these will be damaged,from the temp of the exhaust...the exaust bellows - inside the boat,the rubber hoses connctin the exhaust system - these will be damaged,from the exhaust as well - no water...

You live where the water has no life......
Remnants of Jimmy Hoffa still linger on! :rolleyes:

I hava ol 21 that rihd perty gud for a phat lil boat
An mi 20 cfari rihd gud 2 but flys sum but bigguns mite b bettr idunno

Great story Denny! I quite enjoy your long posts.

I don't know if the 25 is the best riding SeaCraft hull, but it sure handles everything mother nature can throw at her, and give a captain extreme confidence in any conditions.

I have never been on any other SeaCraft model, however I wouldn't hesitate to suggest to any of my friends, to purchase any one sight unseen, just from what members have said about theirs.

For me, it would come down to, which SeaCraft model would best suit my needs? The boat will simply come with a great riding hull!

Best of luck,
Brandon

Kinda looks like you've been hanging around spidercrab too much, UNLESS, you forgot which personality you were using...... hmmmmm..... could it be?

Boo, hasn't Spidey been around longer than Gillie?

hostile ?

you're kidding,right ?