20 or 23 that is the question
 

Ok, I have a question. I would like to restore an old seacraft. I can't decide to do a 20 or 23.

20 will need - floor raised 2-3 inches, transom raised to 25", gelcoat, paint etc.

23 will need new floor, new transom, gelcoat, paint etc.

seems like either option is allot of work, however the cost for both restorations seem to be close to equal except for a bit more material on the 23.

What are ya'll's thought?

by the way, this will be my first project.

If the main purpose is offshore fishing, then definately the 23. Not much difference in total cost for a rigged 20' or 23' with single outboard power.

fixed cost for the 20 and 23 are the same (just about) for either boat: batteries, steering, fuel tank, rigging, trailer, t-top, rod holders, pumps, etc.

The only thing that is marginally different is the cost of the bigger motor for the 23. So for just about the same time and money, you can have the 23'

23' (to me) is still a "big little boat", it has the same basic systems as a skiff. Once you go to a 25'+ with twin motors, the costs jump a lot, "little big boats" are expensive :)

If you have a good size truck to move it around . . . 23 would be my choice. Is the entire floor rotten in the 23? if not . . . just fix the soft area. There is no sense in ripping up the entire floor of a boat if only small section is rotten.

Dont want this to come out the wrong way because i really look up to someone who wants to tackle a restore on one these classics. I just had a conversation with a guy trying to sell a project boat. The way these boats right are priced right now i don't understand why someone would want to restore one these boats when they can get one all ready to go with pretty decent power for the same amount of money it would cost you to restore (restore would be alot more). Resin and materials right now are at there highest price along with everything else that goes along with bringing one of these back to life. And if you are going to need to buy a new motor you will really be upside down in it. I know you probably intend to keep this boat if you are going to do this, but what if something came up and you had to sell for financial reasons? Probably would take a serious loss. To me as good as it would feel to bring a classic SC back from the dead it is a gamble right now in the market. I hope i didn't discourage you because i'm sure you have your reasons for doing this, but i would like to get some other members take on this. This is just my opinion and my opinion only.

You echo many. I bought an early slacker 20 because she didn`t need everything yet...
had a dry and solid 25 " transom and a factory raised solid deck. The 20 is really a near shore boat. Yes it can and will get you home, but the 23 is really twice the offshore fighter. The old 21 is the perfect boat for here and maybe softer. I do not have proppper clearance for Google Earth.
Contact Nasa and ask for Gillie.

Well I can tell you I am and have started two boats at one time.. It is expensive ..if you rather be fishing than itching. I would definitly look into one that is already restored. Unless you have the facilities to do one.. It is hard with the weather the way it is in fl. My boats are outside. and it is really a PIA keeping them dry enough to glass and sand. not to mention paint.. On the flip side.. if you like tinkering and restoring then go for it. Especially if you and your family want to partake in it..There is nothing more rewarding then doing something yourself...but it can take some time.. dont try and reinvent the wheel.. It can be costly.. And what ever you do Don't cut the outer skin if you re- use it...It will save you alot of time and money..Speaking from experience..LOL

Thanks guys for your input. Several years ago I had a 1995 Mako 231. It was before tracker got a hold of Mako. It was a great boat. From the research I have done the 23 Seacraft is an even better boat for offshore fishing.

My reason for wanting to do the restore is simple. I really dont want a boat payment, I want something that I can say I did myself. I am not doing it to flip the boat for a profit, I want to keep the boat. I now live back in Florida, so having a boat is an absolute "MUST"

A few months ago, I bought a 27 foot Phoenix Fishbuster as a project boat. Needed Engines, wiring, plumbing etc. Way I am looking at it, that boat would cost me 15-20K to repower it, and when its done will cost 3x more money to operate. Or I can do a 23 for the same money and its much cheaper to own and operate.

So I have decided, to sell the Phoenix and spend the money on a seacraft. Just doesnt seem like the cost difference between doing a 20 and a 23 is that much difference. I may as well look for a seacraft.

It really depends on the type of fishing you like to do. Ask yourself where you will be spending most of your time. Off shore or Inshore? The answer to this question may not be cut and dry. That is why a lot of us on this board have more then one boat. If I had to pick only one boat between the two it would be a 20 due to the versatility of the smaller hull. You just have to pick your days a little more carefully if you decide to go offshore. I must say that I have never felt as safe as I did in my 23 or my 25 for that matter. That said I use my 20's more then the bigger boats.

strick

older pic...but.... The 3' difference is HUGE. I have owned both. They are both fun to run and handle great.

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/i...s/db6dc016.jpg

I gotta say, most of my fishing will be offshore, here in South Florida. And would like to trailer it to the keys on occasion, also make a trip to the Bahamas. I think I am starting to answer my own question... :-)

As usual,lots of good advice here.
I'll add my two cents for what it's worth.With the costs being somewhat close to restore either,then I'd go with the 23.
If your intention is to save some money by doing a restoration,I think you may find that not to be the case.If you spend time watching the for sale ads on this site and on the net,you'll see that it's not uncommon to find some very nice Seacraft restorations for some very reasonable prices,and will be less than what it would cost to do it yourself.

I was in your position several years ago.I bought a 23' Tsunami(sceptre)that was sitting in a field for 10 years.
I knew it needed a lot of work,and figured it would cost me around 8-10 grand to restore.Well,when I was through with the resto three years later,I was into it for closer to 15-18 thousand.
And,I work for a friend in the glass,resin and marine supply business,so I saved a lot of money there,and got a lot of free technical advice,along with much help on laying up glass.
I did all kinds of horse trading for a lot of the equipment,and did every drop of work myself(with the advice from the folks on this site),and it still cost way more than I projected.
Now for me this was ok,because I didn't have the ready cash to do it all at once,and I had another boat to use in the meantime.
So, I would save up and buy materials when I had the money.The expensive items like the electronics,radar arch,kicker motor,canvas work brought the total up very fast.In the end,I'm still very happy,and proud of the job,and have basically a new boat at a fraction of what a real new one would cost.

I wasn't intending on making this about my project,but just maybe something that would give you an idea of a similar situation to yours and what to expect when attemting any kind of major restore.

If you have the financial resources,then I think buying one already restored would be a better choice.It would be less money,and a whole, whole, whole, whole, less work.I never want to wear a Tyvek suit again.
If on the other hand,you like doing nasty,dirty,itchy,sweaty,back breaking work,and scouting for bargins on supplies,that leads to a beautiful finished project then go for it.

Good luck with whatever you decide,post some pictures when you get the new project.

There ya go!

Just one point, from experience, if you decide to restore a 23'er. Whatever you think it will cost add 50%....minimum. As most of the other folks said get a hull in as good of shape as possible, then spend money on new power and enjoy your time on the water versus the working end of a sander.

There are tons of great boats in the 20K range with newer power. Talk to a credit union if you want to preserve your cash. Rates are so low it's like free money. I'd rather have a fixed $300/month payment for 5 years and be fishing than an unknown variable wallet hemorrhage and commitment to do 2 full years hard labor grinding fiberglass.


I am saying this right before I pickup another large project boat :) but I have a 27 x 50 shop, a good working 23 center console, nearly all the materials (including rolls of 1708, a precut drop in marine ply transom core, epoxy primer, awlgrip, two 200hp motors, hydraulic steering, trim tabs, fuel tank) + parts to assemble it the new hull. See what kind of excuses . . . I come up with to try to convince myself this project is a good idea :) That's the sickness. I'm still budgeting 5 grand for a drum (55 gallons) of resin, rubber gloves, sandpaper, brushes, acetone, misc parts to slap it all together. When you break out the costs of each of those repairs listed above and factor in your TIME at $7.50/hr (2nd job @ a tackle shop pay) . . . You can't make an argument for saving money by buying a project hull even if you get it for free.

Bigeasy, I'm with you on this one. I'll pay for things as I go. In stages, I'm looking to do this just to be like allot of guys on here, just to say you did it. It's more of a sense of accomplishment. I definitely agree it is cheaper and allot less hassle to just buy one. I just don't want debt. Takes allot of the fun out of fishing when there's payments :-)

Thanks guys for all the input

I echo all of the sentiments mentioned; I'm in the middle of my "last super custom" project with a 23 for my family that I am setting up to go for 40 years (pass on to my boys). With all of my inside experience, sources, accounts, exposure to super cool ideas, and super custom open checkbook projects that I planed and executed when I had my full service business- it is still a challenge:

I started with a day of team work disassembly, a "project pallet with 4k plus of resin, bedding compound, coosa, 1708, mat, etc, etc, etc. and it's been full bore one or two days a week for months. If you want to take the opportunity to built the exact boat that you want, and honestly plan to keep it for a good while (10+years), and have a boat handy rating of 6 or above (on a scale of 1-10), have at it: if you can put the time in, it'll be one of the most rewarding things you'll ever do-- Just remember;I warned you!

Congrats on enrolling in project boat 101 adult arts and crafts :) That will be $4000 up front and every dollar in your wallet each month for the next 2 years. Seriously it's a lot of fun and there's no better feeling than when you splash the boat for the first time.

can someone give me a breakdown of major expenses for what they spent on their 20 and 23 projects.

Hull ?
Materials ?
Engine ?
Paint ?
etc ?

thanks again guys for your help

You guys are making this way to complicated.
Simple answer is-------, you need BOTH!
Having had my 20' for some years, I have decided that I am getting a bit long in the tooth to be zipping to the Bahama's for lunch in her, so I am building a 25' something. But, I love that 20' so much I am building one of them also, my quick (I can get into any dock for lunch boat) around town.
Money wise? Heck it can run from 15-100+K, all depends on who does it, how they do it, what they use and what kind of equipment you put on it.

This can vary wildly depending on what you are starting with and the level of finish you want to achieve.

You mentioned the 23 needs a floor and transom . . . if it's that far gone you'll almost definitely need to replace the fuel tank, fuel tank supports, and recore the gunnel cap. Some folks have removed all the foam from the stringers too, but I personally think it's not necessary unless they are totally soaked (pretty rare)

fuel tank ($1000) including all the hoses.

fuel tank support ($ 600 - $1000+)
$130 pail of poly or $400 epoxy (4 -5 gallons of resin)
$100 core (1/2 marine ply)
$50 approx 5 yards of fabric
$250 in grinding discs, sawsall blades, acetone, paper towels, gloves, brushes,
cabosil, mixing cups, 5200, saw blades, rollers, roller handles, trays, plastic,
spreaders, mixing sticks, razor blades, chisels,
$100 for bilge paint

Battery support area is gonna be shot (another 2 to 3 gallons of resin, + core + fabric) or just cut them out.

Transom $1000 - $2500
Depends what you use for Core material (penske, coosa, marine ply)
approx 10 gallons of resin (poly or epoxy)

Floor $1000 - $3000
Entire floor not including front deck? + hatches recored?

Gunnel Cap Recore $1000 (not including boat jewelry)


So approx 4-5K on the cheap for marine ply splatter finish (transom, floor with a new fuel tank and tank support)

and approx 7500K+ to make it look factory using composites (no wood + epoxy + vacuum bagging)


Then:

complete wiring job $1000 - $2000 (includes bilge pumps, wash down, switches, breakers, batteries)

Painting $1000 - $2000 for awlgrip or awlcraft 2000.

New Rubrail $400 - $1000

Boat jewelry Popup cleats and lights. $600 - $2000


Trailer?
Engine?
Rigging? Steering? Trim tabs?

This is a guesstimate based on my own experience.

if you get the 20 MA it falls between the 23 and 20SF... which was why i looked for mine.. and the cost to build number depends on whether you ask infront of the wife or not.. if the wife is pressent... I traded everything out with friends...LOL

You were really nice with some of those numbers.. Lol. Thats the low end.

Ha Mike! I almost talked myself out of the next project typing that up. Just say "no" to math with these projects.

I love it :) Tim is thinking rational again.

Besides all the money another consideration is the size of the project. Since its your first project a 20 would be a lot easier.

Strick