Seafari 25 Conversion Thoughts on Power?
 

Hey Guys...

Put my 25' seafari up and could not get what I wanted out of it. Started the Tear Down Conversion yesterday... Removed Both engines, outdrives and housings... Glass Work 2morrow...

Now... My Question...

The seafari is only 400 lbs heavier than the 23' Tsunami according to brochure.... I Am considering running the following set up and am looking for some thoughts and or opinions...

Will be running a Porta Bracket and am Wondering if I am better off running one 250 Etec.. will be a used motor or better off running Twins...

Twins would be either 150 or 200 Johnson Ocean Runners the 200's might be overkill I saw where Bilgerat stated almost 50mph with twin 150 mercs on his...

Pros and Cons or thoughts... to the Power? I am ready to order the Porta Bracket as soon as I make a decision.... Just concerned that a 250 or 225 will Just not have enough poop to run it out... but hate the idea of double the costs with Twins... What you'all think..?

Thanks In advance for Replies...
Robert

I think the 250 should be enough for a decent top speed and fuel economy, especially with the efficiency of this hull. I know a guy with a 25 Bertram flybridge (a heavier, less efficient hull) with 1 300 etec and he reports a top speed of almost 40 mph with a cruising speed around 30, that's great for most places. If you want more top speed then how about a 300 etec unless you already have a used 250 lined up?

I know you could get a great deal on used 30 inch 300 Suzuki and be totally hooked up. The fly by wire would make it a breeze to set up. A 250 would work but that hull is worth not under powering.

The 25 will balance much better with 1 engine, important in that hull. I don't think it will be very fast with the 250, depends on what you need. I run mine with a 5.7 v8 I/O duoprop that is around 290 hp. Most efficient cruise is around 25-26 knots with a moderate to light load, but it drops fast when you load the boat down. With another 1000 lbs loaded for a Bahamas trip, 21-22 knots is most efficient cruise(7-8 inch vacuum and I don't want to run any harder)
.

Torque will be a significant issue. 2 stroke outboards often don't have near as much torque as I/Os of the same horsepower. It makes a huge difference if its real sloppy and you want to slow way down. A very deep hull like this one takes a lot of torque to stay on plane when going slow.


Just my opinion, but I'd stay with a single I/O in that hull, much better balance and CG, plus no torque issues.

During your rehab, check the stringers carefully underneath the bunks. Consider adding a bulkhead forward.

Connor

Congratulations on deciding to keep that boat! It's a rare and very special model that few people understand or fully appreciate it's capabilities! Forum member Big Fluke is a naval architect in Hawaii that has a Seafari 25 and says once you get CG location right, it's one of the most seaworthy small boat hulls he's ever tested!

Carl Moesly designed the Seafari 25 to have a ballast tank up forward, similar to what he used in his race boats. http://www.moeslyseacraft.com/25-seafari.html However he sold the company to Potter before ever building a 25, and Potter apparently never understood the ballast tank so left it out. Potter has been quoted as saying that the 25 Seafari is the one boat he could never get to "handle right"! Connor Davis is the resident authority on this hull, with lots of experience running his boat in some big seas on several Bahamas trips; he says it runs and handles much better with weight up front.

Although I have a lot of experience with a bracket, having adding one to my boat after running it for 31 years with an OB on transom, I believe going to a bracketed outboard on the 25, ESPECIALLY one with no flotation, is a big mistake. The last thing that boat needs is a rearward shift in CG; if anything it needs to shift forward, so I'd consider installing a big fresh water tank up front. Dave (Blue Heron) and Strick, who bought their 25's with blown engines, decided to stay with an I/O to avoid shifting the CG and I suspect Connor would recommend the same. Although a big outboard, especially an E-TEC, will weigh much less than an I/O, most of the I/O's weight is forward of the transom, so an outboard on a bracket will shift the CG aft in the wrong direction. Carl told me that the CG on the 140 I/O Seafari 20 is further forward than it is on the OB model. Forum member Tiny who once owned both an I/O and OB Seafari 20 said that the I/O model does indeed plane easier at lower speed than the OB model and he felt that it rode a bit softer. I'm sure a comparison between an I/O and OB Seafari 25 would be similar.

I would suggest that a single I/O with a duoprop type outdrive, with a modern EFI V-8 like Blue Heron and Island Trader bought, would be the optimum configuration for that boat, and it would be lighter and thus perform better than the twin I/O's than it originally had.

Connor, I really appreciate you taking the time to reply in detail. I cannot wrap my brain around the I/O i not only hate them, I despise them, Especially after the mess I took out of 25 Beast Yesterday. The only Outboard Model I know of is the one with Twin 150 Mercs on it... I am really leaning towards a Single 250 Right now as thats what the budget will allow and then looking for a 300 Next year after I have ran this boat some.

as Bushwhacker said I know you are the resident expert on these 25 seafari's, Is the Difference so Much bigger between this and a 23' Tsunami that a 250 wouldn't cut it? Looked a bunch of boat specs on the evinrude website with real #'s on the 225 and 250 engines.

Right now I am Really leaning towards the 250 mercury EFI used of course and then doing the upgrade when i can... Total weight will be close to 700lbs vs the 1200 lbs i just took out. By using the Porta Bracket I am only using 17" of setback instead of the 30 traditionally used...

Any other thoughts...?

Thanks Robert

Bushwacker... Thanks for the Lengthy reply and I appreciate it. Was not an easy choice to keep this bugger around... but at the end of the day everyone was lowballing and the condition of this hull is just too good.

As I told Connor, I despise I/O and guess I am gonna end up the 250/300 outboard guinea pig over the next year...

Expecting to have the Glass work done by Thursday and ready for a Bracket and Motor...

I guess the worst case scenario if it really ends up being a total Turd Bucket I can always Repower it with a I/O and sell it...

Thanks Robert

Moose... It would have to be a Hell of Deal, I love the Suzuki engines but am guessing that one is outta my range. At the end of the day I keep leaning back to the Etec Outboards... Can't do one now... Prolly gonna be a 250 Merc EFI and then Try to pull of an upgrade next year... Now if that deal is Super Screaming... Please PM me.. Would Love more details..

Thanks Robert

If you are dead set against an I/O, a single outboard on a short bracket should work. You may find that the 250 is too slow in a calm water cruise mode for your desire. However, the hull runs so much faster than most hulls when it is bumpy, that the average is a lot closer than it appears at first. I went from a 24 Seabird deep V to the 25, lost 2-3 knots calm water cruise when loaded heavy, but, on long open water runs I still get there sooner with the 25. Much sooner if it is bumpy. I just don't need to slow down in any conditions I'd have been willing to take the Seabird out in. If it really gets nasty and you need to slow down below 18 knots, I think you will not like that 250, because it will probably want to jump on and off a plane.

Balance will be tricky and will take some experimentation. You can allow for moving the CG aft by adding weight, water or fuel or pig iron, under the berths. The boat really does like weight forward. Tabs help, but just are not the same thing Vertical CG might get you. Because the boat is very very sharp, it rolls. The VDH hull keeps it from snap rolling,the bane of many deepVs, but only as it was originally built. The hull is very sensitive to raising the CG. As you do things that raise the CG, the roll gets worse and it might start to snap on you. I had a friend who owned one with twin outboards, a hard top and a tower. It snap rolled so bad his wife would not set foot on it, even after they removed the tower. Bildgerat likes his twin outboards and doesn't have any problem with the roll. Make your choices, take your chances.

On the 250 vs the 300. I've never had either, so take this for what it is worth. The 300 will have a faster cruise,probably a bit faster than mine. As a 4 cycle, it should have more torque. Should be fine. Personal opinion, the 250 2 cycle is too light for that boat. I'd be astonished if it had the torque to act right at low planing speeds. Above 18 knots, it will be fine, just not fast.

The 25 takes more power than the 23, not because it weighs more, but because it is so much deeper. You pay for that ride with a less efficient hull.

I assume you have read Stricks and Blue Herons rebuild threads and my " strange crack" thread. If not, read'um before you do any glass work forward. Also, for handling in rough water, read my Bahama threads. It got crazy a couple of times.

On craigslist there is a 25 with a 225 etec and a notched transom. IMO a 250 EFI would be plenty of power. If my 25 wasn't so clean . . . I'd do the same and free up cockpit space. I got to ride in strick's 25 recently and it's very different from the 23.

Cameron, Thank you for the reply. I appreciate it. I was hoping to get some more info from Bildgerat on his 25 with the twin mercs...

I could easily slap Twin 200 Ocean Pros On with no problem... This boat has a 200 Lb Hard top and that's it... I was thinking..(I know Dangerous of Me) that if Twin Merc 150's pushed it so well that a Single 250 would be Dang Near perfect.

I guess I didn't realize how much deeper the seafari is vs the tsunami... I thought it was the exact same hull just stretched 2.5 feet...

I did read your entire bahamas thread... Loved the pics and videos... I will now go hunt up strick and Herons build threads now...

Thanks for all your input Cameron...

Regards,
Robert

I like the idea of the notched transom with a 30 inch df 300. The balance would be preserved and motor would be low enough to make it to the right depth. I have the same set up on my Tsunami with a df 250 on a small adjustable 10" bracket that would works well too. A big single just off the back wouldn't be any more than the pair of cast iron engine and drives that were in it.

I checked ebay and there are no 300s right now but I have seen some great deals on there with reasonably low hours and controls included for around $13k or less. The df 300 has forged everything and is a rock solid motor you can run on the cheapest pump gas with no issue. I also agree you could do it with the 250 as well and save $3k but for the price difference and fly by wire I would go big if you could squeeze it in your budget.

This is what the set up looks like off the back of the Tsunami with the notch. You can't see the small CNC bracket but it works well with the 30 inch motor. I would love to see the same on a 25. When or if I find one at project level I would like to do some experimenting.

I am just learning about my hull. But I do have pics of the inside of the hull.

http://www.classicseacraft.com/commu...5&postcount=82

I didn't have a tank deck. Like the others, I would be concerned with LCG. Some ballast forward and low would be a good idea, I think.

I am leery of an I/O, also. This is my first. I am curious to see how you do with a single big O/B.

Bigshrimpin - I tend to agree as a 250 2 banger is putting down some heavy torque and massive power... Looking at evinrude site the #'s on other boats via weight all showing Top speed at WOT between 44 and 49mph all the boats between 3300 and 4000 lbs dry weight no engines which is right in line with the Seafari...

I am kicking around a ton of ideas and am 90% convinced that the 250 EFI is the way to go... For now I can pick up a Super nice 25" Merc 250 for around $5000 Looking like I am the 25' Seafari Guinea Pig.

Robert

Moose - If i Ran a 30" Foot with a Notch on it the Notch would still be 23" deep not far off the deck at all... But I tend to agree that a Jackplate mount would be a great way to go... I like the idea of the Powertran which is a 7" vertical travel electric jackplate, they use them all the time around here with Aluminum outboard boats, so the guys can switch between a Jet foot and Prop, they work pretty dam awesome...

My budget wont allow that kind of dough for Power right now... I am setting a cap limit of $5500 for Repower... and Probably better since there is not a lot of data on this set up...

Thanks for the Input...
Robert

Fishstretcher,
We are in the same boat...LOL There is no way on this planet I will run an I/O under any circumstances...and no way I would run one offshore 40 or 50 miles and only one Power Plant...

On Your boat... I would run the Bracket in a Second...

Robert

I know people think this way all the time...but folks cruise across the ocean on a single engine. Hell I cruised from the Great Lakes to the Gulf Of Mexico on one engine. And yes at times I was way off shore.

My two cents........if you get the EFI you will love it UNTIL you go the the gas pump, ask me how I know! Then in a year or two you will say "I want to re-power with new technology" to cut my gas bills. In the end, do it right the first time! Then you won't have to go through the justification process over and over......I know, I do it every time I go out!

Islandtrader - My Bad i should have elaborated more... and I just realized as i was typing this, in the Northwest here you tons of single engine Boats... But here we all run kicker motors 8hp to 15hp 4 strokes depending on the size of boat. From Previous experience i have just come to loath the I/O personal preference only. Agree that the newer technology Single Engine plus Seatow is all a guy needs, Then toss in a Great Kicker motor and ur set. My boat will only see 20 to 40 miles offshore about 6 to 10 days a year for Tuna... Outside of that, I can get it too the ramp most times without to much effort.

Thanks for the Clarification of my post..
Robert

Donv - It's not so much as what I exactly want, My Ideal engine would be the Etec 250 H.O. used or not, but even then still looking at $10,000 plus.

The Merc EFI 250 or a Yami 250 ox66 is gonna be a huge upgrade over the 92 Johnson 200 Looper I have been running for fuel economy. That looper on its best day got about 1 mpg if it was running good.

I am already dumping serious money into this boat... I can live this year with a 250 EFI and the Pumps vs digging up another $5,000 for newer Technology. It will beat the hell out of owning a boat that sits here for a year getting a Make Over ... I wanna Fish and Hunt out of this Machine.

Thanks for the Reply though.

Robert

That west coast seashore is way way more unforgiving than the east coast. Gotta have the kicker. 4 stroke kicker / trolling motors save a lot of fuel.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...-coastline.jpg

http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/med...-beach-iii.jpg

Bigshrimpin... Love that shot of the Oregon Coast there and yes I could not agree more... Lots of debate between one Big Engine vs Twins... Out here you seen a Lot of 225 and 250 Yamaha Engines the coastal crowd loves the 4 strokes.... On ocassion you see the big 2 bangers like the ox66 and the merc efi and the Etec 250 h.o.

Every last one of them will have a 8hp Yamaha High Thrust kicker or a 15 Hp Yamaha kicker with Extra Long shaft on them... The dreaded day you gotta come in from 15 miles out on the kicker sucks... but I am really leaning towards a 15 HP Yamaha Xtra Long High Thrust and a single 250 EFI or OX66 motor for now. I can get that done together for under 6,000 total...

Toss in a porta bracket and this should work... Huge difference between 17" of setback and 30" fixed bracket...

Unless someone chimes in with a great reason to forgo this I am going to end up being the Seafari 25' Pig Tester I guess....

Just so tough when there is no data on this boat to speak of outside of the I/O situation...

Appreciate the feedback my friend... Do you have any other Ideas?

Robert

I think you will want between 200 and 300 lbs ballast by the anchor locker. Squeezing trim tabs around a kicker might be a little tricky. It is said that trim tabs work better in the middle panels, not the outer panels. All the usual tricks like fins and stern lifting 4 blade props are probably the place to start.

I'm not much help on the OBs, but I do have an 8 hp Yammie hithrust on the 25. Very happy with it. Pushes the boat 4 knots into wind and chop and 5+ in calm conditions. This is far superior to the old 15 hp Evinrude I had on the Seabird. It had about zilch low end torque and would not do much at all into wind and chop, and that was with the biggest diameter, lowest pitch prop I could get. .

I guess I'm late to the dance... My $0.02

• My 25 had a 260hp Mercruiser (blown) when I got it. The PO said the boat would run 40mph with it. My 300HP IO will push it to almost 45 if I prop for speed and run light. Propped for normal use, it cruises at 30mph and tops out around 40 depending on load.

• I did a "back of the napkin" moment calculation once on the CG effect of a single outboard on a bracket, twins on a bracket, and a single V8 IO. Twins shift the CG aft, no surprise. A single OB on a bracket won't move the LCG aft, but it will move the VCG upward. Put a 30gal water tank under the cabin sole and call it good.

• I believe a 250 OB will be plenty of power, but it won't be a race boat. The key to low speed planing will be the prop. If you go Merc 2 stroke, get an Opti, not an EFI. The keel on this boat is deep. You will want a 30" shaft unless you like running the powerhead very close to waterline at idle.

• One advantage of an OB is engine height adjustment. My Bravo drive is mounted about 1/2" higher than recommended by Mercruiser, and it's probably 2"-3" lower than it should be. The steep deadrise angle has a huge effect on correct engine height.

Connor,
Awesome and Thank You that is exactly what I was looking for on the 8hp Yamaha High Thrust. I was considering trying to find a 15 Xtra Long and then Turning it into a High Thrust. That just made my day... Got a 8hp HT Yammie sitting here in the Garage.

Definately Keep You all Posted on the Build out over the next 3 weeks.

Blue Heron.. Thank You .. Thank You... Your calculations seem to be very close to mine. I spoke to Scott Porta today at Porta Brackets. Will be putting on a 26" 350 HP Porta Bracket in 2 weeks... Scott seems to think this is gonna be one awesome handling boat with the Single 250 on the bracket, I have to tend to agree.

I cant swing the 250 OPTI on Price now... Am working on an OX66 Yamaha from a Guy as well as a 250 Merc EFI from another. If i could swing the cash load on the Opti I would or better yet a 250 H.O. Etec that will have to come next year... The Porta bracket is almost 3k and along with Glass, Resin and all the other stuff I am gonna be 14,000 Into this sucker without much overhaul at this point. With that being said, If i can get her in the water in the next 30 or so days and run it... That should tell me where to start...

And I will be giving out all the data I can so anyone else thinkin about it with a 25' Seafari can... Thanks for taking the time to reply.. Appreciate it.

Robert

Spoken by one who was there.

I ain't doing the math, but I once used a teeter-totter at a Holiday Inn...
Might check with Blue Heron on his napkin bracket calculations. My guess is that he was including a flotation bracket in his calculation rather than a Porta-bracket.

I think Porta-brackets are fine for skinny water and shallow-draft, flat-bottom boats but me thinks this is a bad plan for a 25 deg dead-rise hull that wants is ass end out of the water in the big pool.

I'd talk to Don Herman at Hermco before spending a wad on Scott's product and ruining a perfectly good boat because a rogue wave caught your arse crossing the bar. Just a thought;)

Mcgillicuddy, Thanks for the input... The debate between Twins and Big Singles and the so called Flotation brackets vs non flotation is beat dead.

I for one just look at the math... In a so called flotation bracket you need One Cubic foot of Air to float 63 lbs... Add a 150 lb bracket you need 2.5 cubic feet... Now try and float a 495 lb engine on top of that and you need 10 cubic feet of Trapped air for balanced flotation...

I guess IMHO and it's only an opinion that Flotation brackets cannot create positive flotation... but I will say Don makes Kick Ass brackets for sure but I looked into them and between 3,000 and 4,000 bucks vs the porta with 17 Inches of verticle travel for $2900.00

The main issue is outside of one Person no one has added a bracket to the back of a 25 Seafari... I have to believe that Heron has his #'s right since mine were as close... Even taking into account the so called Cantilever effect the 600 lbs on a 26" Set back is not to far off of 2 outdrives hanging straight out the back and 1100 lbs of engines.... I am going to be really curious to see how she squats once the bracket is on with a 250 HP.

Someone here has to be a Guinea Pig and I am signing up for it... The worst that can happen... I have to remove the bracket, Notch the Transom with a 30" Foot Motor and Glass in a Splash well to Preserve the Integrity of a Full Transom...

This should be interesting to See what happens... can always add some kind of balanced Ballast to the Front as Needed to Level her out...

Thanks Robert

Can't wait to see the results with the bracket and OB installed and the performance with such.

You are brave for taking this on. No expert by a LONG shot but I'd opt for a 300 hp 2 stroke on a notched 30" transom with the splashwell (make the splashwell foldable to give you as much stern room as possible). Then float her and see how she sits. From there you can add/subtract weight along the centerline as needed. Use a 6 gallon portable tank and bring weight to simulate tank placement, etc...Seems the best strategy for doing it once :)
Best of luck, Steve

Thillman - Thank You - will start a build out thread 2morrow.

Blackfin26 - I thought about this a lot, I can always remove bracket and go to a Notched Transom if this does not work... The only Outside cost will be the Porta bracket... So I decided to try this first... If for some reason its a no go... Then the Notch can come... Going with a 30" Foot out the gate.

Look for a build thread to start... Thank You for the Input!

Robert,
Like I said I've not done the math, & not poo-pooing yer project. I thought the the intent of the bracket was to offset the weight of the shift aft, rather than to wholly float a motor. Which as you mentioned, offsetting the weight can also be done by shifting weight around in the boat. Obviously plenty of room to move batteries fore and store a bunch of Cannon balls up there for your salmon drops.

I'm curious about the effect of moving the 500 lbs aft 2 ft after also removing 1200 pounds of iron from the belly... seems like the vertical CG would rise some, too. I look forward to your build out thread and ensuing results.

Are you still thinking about the Tsunami? Or do you think you'll give this boat a go for the salmon and tuna excursions?

Cheers,
McGill

Mcgill,
I am definitely giving the 25 a go for salmon/tuna runs this season. I have a sneaking suspicion this is gonna be a "Different Kind of Project" then things I have tackled in the past. Normally a guy can gather some field data to base some decisions on....

Today as we both noted it's nothing more than pure Theoretical Speculation on my part. I am 100% convinced a Notch Out with a 30" shaft and Splashwell conversion will work Great. But I have always used some form of Hydraulic/Electric transom jackplate and the performance has always been steller. In fact I installed a 20" Gil bracket with a Transjack a few years ago on a 22" starcraft Islander when Guys said i was nutz... Was one of the best performing aluminum boats i have ever owned for big water... But it wasn't no Seacraft...

At the end of the day... I am doing all this work with the hopeful intention of keeping this 25' til i Keel over and then be buried in it. Now that I am committed its gonna be pretty cool to see what happens... I mean Hell, I think a 250 Single should push this monster 44mph to 48mph at WOT but I could be wayyyyyyyyy... Off on that. I think a lot of guys get engine mounted and prop and call it good. I am a fanatic about engine height and Prop Selection and amazing things can happen when you get the 2 dialed in correctly for any give boat.

Thanks again for the input always appreciate the fact that anyone takes time to reply on a forum thread. Will start the Build Thread as Soon as I get the Seacast, Mat, resin ordered and of course the Porta bracket...

Regards,
Robert

Merc 250 EFI's are about the thirstiest engines made in the last 20 years. Solid engines, but you will not be happy with the fuel burn.

Notch the transom, put a small splashwell in it, run a 30" motor. 25 degree hulls are harder to get right but pay it back when it gets snotty.

What about an Arneson surface piecing drive mated up to a built 454 or 496 big block. Low VCG. CG still stays forward. 4 stroke efficiency with very low drag and excellent performance to boot! Low draft and No out drive headaches either. Trying to "think outside the box".

Congrats on the website! Are you over on TST, cough cough, the spurious truth?

Outside the box indeed.

I`m not an I/O fan either, but in this situation, it works very well.

I see a gal in a 20 seafari IO with 2 kids a lot and she walks by me in the slop.

" hopeful intention of keeping this 25' til i Keel over and then be buried in it."


One good long ride when it is really nasty will make that certain, not just hopeful.

I don't know if you have read some of my comments on what the boat "feels" like, but it instills an amazing sense of confidence in its ability to handle anything that is thrown at it. Different from any boat I've experienced and in ways that are hard to explain.

It`s been a blowin` 15-20 here for a couple `o weeks here now.

That is where they shine.

My short thoughts.

That hull reminds me of skiing the bumps while following masters. Get on top and let her dance. She is a dancer of high order. She likes understanding and skill.

Balance. Need to think about the ballast tank again...

Headhunter...Thanks for the heads up on the EFI's. I finally decided today I am on the Hunt for a 225 Johnson Ocean Runner not the pro or a Johnson 225 HO 1999 - 2001 those are hard to come by. They are all under $5,000 now and within my budget for this year. Am seriously considering the notch with a 8" Bracket connected to a E6 Powrtran jackplate.

Decisions decisions...
Thanks Robert

Sceptre I looked into a surface drives but the cost was insane and still back to the dam engine inside the box. Got to say LMAO here since your handle states Sceptre Outboard... Love It... Just a die hard OB fan here I guess...
Thanks for the Outside the Box...

Robert

Connor, You have been awesome my friend with the input and I truly appreciate it knowing your running the same boat. It appears I need a friggen Mechanical Engineering Degree to own one of these 25's, in the long run gotta think you hit the nail on the head... Am seriously considering the notch with a Powrtran.... See post above... Any more Amazing thoughts on your end?

Robert

Sandman totally agree on the balance... My first order will be getting the OB on the Hull either with a Porta bracket or a Notch with 8" of setback plates mounted to a Powrtran 6" jackplate... I am having a hell of a time making a decision... Mapped out a notch with the pencil tonight... If i go that route I only need a 12" deep Splash well and its 17" from top to bottom... Working my Hiney off on this end... I want to splash this Big Girl by June 15th then fix the little stuff...

Robert

Gillie,
The IO is the fat kid that sits closer to the fulcrum on the teeter totter to make it balance, the bracketted single is the skinny kid sitting out at the end. Bracketted twins are the fat kid sitting on the end of the teeterr totter, and a non starter for balance.

Dave

Yes Sir Headhunter is almost 100% correct. I own a 225 Merc EFI and my brother owned a 250, both very solid, dependable and thirsty. However there is only one other engine I have owned that can top the Merc and it was my 1995 225 hp Evinrude Ocean Pro......those carbed engines were the very, very worst for fuel burn!!!! I never knew you could run that much gas through a 3/8" hose in that short of time!!!!!!!