1970 Seafari conversion to CC
 

I got this boat for a great deal and am lookin forward to make this boat like new! I jumped in head first and have already ran into something I am unsure about:confused: I got the cap and floor off and noticed that the stringers are hollow except for a single 1x3 running the length of the stringers. I want to cut the tops off, raise the sides of the stringers, foam fill them, and then reglass them. Not sure if there is a better solution that will be less work, but if there is I would love to know! So im just gettin started and hope you guys will chime in if you see something that doesnt look right. Thanks!!

I want to put a flotation bracket on the boat and raise the floor to make this boat a self bailing cockpit. Im unsure about putting a bracket and 4stroke 150 on a boat this small as far as how the boat will run. Also if anyone knows how high the floor needs to be raised to be at least an inch above the waterlinewould be great. Or do i have to load the boat down with 50gal drums to find out!

You can do some searches b4 the guys chime in...also beware that when bushwacker see this post he will go nuts...LOL

He loves his 20 Seafari and when someone cuts one up he starts to cry...

Amen Brother, Along with Dave, Conner, Gillie, and me. Padre Frank says "forgive them, for they know not what they do!"

I agree. If he had posted before breaking out the saw, the consensus would have been sell it and buy a CC. Lots cheaper and easier.

That said, I REALLY hope you complete this and it looks nice in the end. Read the sticky post about a bracket on a 20. You would have been happier with a Seafari with a bracket. You have to be VERY careful with a 4 stroke bracketed 20. ESPECIALLY a center console. I researched it, bought a bracket and then didn't install it. And I have a lighter 4 stroke on a 20 with a forward mounted tank and batteries.

I think you would be much better served with a light 90 or 115 on a notched transom with a splashwell gate.

Put the lid back on before Pandora gets out! Seriously, most every Seafari owner has had CCs in their past and would never go back.

Add pianewman to this list...

Yea agree, it is much easier to start with a cc and seafari's are rare and all but it's not like you cut up a 25' seafari or a 27 seamaster. There are more models out there more rare that need not be cut but if your hearts in it and you don't mind all the extra work it will make a nice boat. If you planned on having a 3 piece boat with out a liner it wont be too bad vs doing a cc the same way. The main thing is having to build the gunnels back from nothing. You will have to spend a lot more time in that area but all the rest will be basically the same once cut up. Check out Calibougue on here he had a cc 20 but tossed the cap and built it back from scratch with a custom cap made from core cell. Yours done this way would be about the same process. His was a real nice 20 cc with bracket, all composite and built with out a liner.

Here is the link: http://www.classicseacraft.com/commu...t=22551&page=8

I saw this post yesterday but decided to hold off on a reply to avoid saying something I might regret later!

As others have said, you are definitely making a CC the hard way! You would have expended much less time, sweat and $ if you had just bought a CC in the first place, as they are relatively common, having been been built by Moesly, Potter, SeaCraft Industries, and Tracker, as late as 2005 or so. Only Moesly and Potter built the Seafari 20, and they only built 349 OB models over 10 years starting in 1969. During the same time they built over 2600 CC models, counting the 18 and 20 SF/MA models. I'm sure thousands more were built by SCI and Tracker. However they only built 80 Seafari 25's, so they are even rarer than the original Moesly 21, although many of the 21's were raced and probably did not survive!

I do see a couple of problems with your plans. The worst is hull stiffness, or lack thereof. By removing the cap, bulkhead, and inner liner you've significantly reduced the structural stiffness of the hull. The Seafari had the stiffest hull of all the 20' models because of those features and cuts through big seas like a tank because of it! Most guys put 2x4's across top of hull when they remove the cap to keep hull from distorting. Note that the original CC models do not have openings in the inner liner below the gunnell at the rear . . . I believe that was an attempt to retain some of the stiffness that's created by that shelf and high coaming of the Seafari cap. I hope you're planning to core the hull sides to restore some of that stiffness to the hull!

The other problem is that the Seafari has more weight forward than any other 20' model, so it's the best suited for a bracket. Plus it has a much higher coaming, so you could raise the deck more in it without having the gunell down around your ankles! Unless you mount the CC and fuel tank fairly far forward, you'll be stern heavy with a bracket, especially with a 500 lb 4-stroke motor on it. If you're dead set on a 4-stroke, the only one I'd consider is the 140 Zuke, but a 150 Opti (or an E-TEC if you want quiet) will have much more mid-range torque for planing with heavy loads. Or a 115 2-stroke would about match the Zuke for mid-range torque, but be about 50 lbs lighter!

As for deck height and the scupper issue, it looks like you may have a Moesly hull with the scuppers out the transom. If so, I'd leave 'em there, install the Raybud ping pong ball check valves, and cross the drain lines below the deck like Moesly did, i.e., port scupper drains out stbd side, etc. If you do that you probably won't have to raise the deck more than a couple inches to keep your feet dry if you keep motor weight under 400 lbs. For reference, my boat, which has the highest flotation bracket available, is still self bailing at the dock, but just barely, with no one aboard. And of course I have more weight forward than most CC's, and I don't have a 500 lb motor on the bracket. You might also want to reconsider the bracket. It's main advantage is the solid transom and more room in the boat, but the performance benefits are over-rated! A good friend of mine has the same boat and motor but a transom mount, and his boat is 4-5 mph faster than mine, which is compromised by the 4B prop and Doelfin required to compensate for the heavy stern!

I wish you well with your project, but I'd suggest that it needs more thought. Also, did your boat have the galley seat and if so what did you do with it? Some other Seafari owners might want it. Also do you still have the windshield and bow rail? That's a beefier Moesly style bow rail if it has 4 stanchions/side instead of the 3/side on Potter rails. That windshield also looks better than mine, so I might be interested! Where are you located?

Did somebody say "windshield"? If the OP hasn't dumped it yet, I might be interested, as well, assuming Denny doesn't grab it first!

Ditto for the galley seat! I see a hole in the inner hull, next to where the companion seat was...

Denny: Very thoughtful post, as usual.

Safari CC
 

afishin82,
You are going to think we are a bunch of cantankerous curmudgeons, raisin sand about you saw-zall'in the Seafari up. I was thinking today that there is just one name on the title and it is yours, so you need to do whatever you think is best for "afishin82".
This is like a Seacraft think tank here and Don Herman, the moderator and Denny, Gillie, Strick and others know all there is to know about brackets, hull extensions and the "Center of Buoyancy" (not gravity) how to get optimum performance out of the 20' hulls.
You are at the right place to learn how to save a bunch of steps, time and money learning things what has already been "learnt" by these folks and they are happy to share their own experiences, observations and knowledge with you.
You have an interesting project laid out in front of you and a lot of steps to go through before you are finished. Proceed carefully, ask questions, take heed and press on.
(and pleeeze take down those "before" pictures of that pretty little yeller Safari ASAP, so Denny don't have to lay awake at night - it's like the "Cat Juggler" in the movie The Jerk, for him. Very painful!)

I am still undecided on cc or cuddy. I already own a 25 ft walkaround and want a smaller cc for the nicer days! I am not dead set on this hull but I do want a 20 ft seacraft. I would be willing to trade for a cc if someone has one layin around. I dont mind the extra work, dont like to think about extra costs. I still have the cap, windshield, and bowrail. If I dont get a cc trade I will be willing to sell this stuff.I really appreciate all this feedback so keep it coming.

So would a layer of 1708 a layer of 1.5oz mat and some supports on the hull sides be good enoigh or does it need to be cored. I want to do it right no matter what it takes so point me in the right direction.

Haha thanks alot terry and im glad I signed up for this website and I get where you guys are coming from. I want to end up with a boat I love and Is built the way I want It so all the feedback helps.

Sad, sad, sad.....

FYI:
1970 20SF on Daytona CL right now for $650
Stringers have been replaced and raised....
Needs transom..

1708 already contains mat (17 oz woven roving + 8 oz. mat), so you don't need additional mat which adds very little strength anyway. The main function of mat is that it holds a lot of resin, so it helps fill in the gaps that would otherwise exist between the coarser layers of woven roving, helping to bond roving layers together. You definitely need a core to get back at least SOME of the stiffness you lost by removing the cap and bulkhead! Check out billythekid's post "I must be punishing myself" to see how to add the core inside the hull sides. Not sure if 1 layer of 1708 over the core would be enough, but billy's done this before, so if you do whatever he did, I'm sure it'll be ok.

Thanks bushwacker I have already read the entire thread.its pretty awesom! Gets me pumped up to get mine going! :D

A final layer or two of mat on the inside would actually be good for cosmetic reasons. Polyester resin shrinks as it cures, so the mat helps prevent the weave of the relatively course roving from printing through the final layer, and would require less fairing and sanding to prep for painting. Per a brochure from 1979 attached below, Potter used 4 layers of mat, more than anybody, between the gel coat and first layer of roving to prevent print-through.

Balsa core is a good choice for coring the inside of a hull above the waterline. It bonds well because resin soaks into it better than foam, plus it has at least 6 times more shear strength than most foams. For more info on core materials, check out this article by Dave Pascoe: http://www.yachtsurvey.com/core_materials.htm

Easier way to go as well.

Sandwich (foam or balsa) core is a great stiffener. But it really would be easier to start with a CC. I just got done playing with a lot of 1/2" divinycel H80. And 3/4" H80. It is great stuff, but an entire hull would be a lot of work. It works really well with 1708 DBM as far as I can tell. But I am burnt out doing bulkheads and hatch covers. I think I sent north of $2500 on foam, vinylester, glass and consumables (for my 25 footer). You would need similar amounts in terms of dollar value. And work every weekend it wasn't raining. I hear divorces are expensive, but I haven't gotten that far yet. I probably spent an extra $600-$800 recently on "date nights" to try to strike a balance there. Plus a trip to the opthamologist for fiberglass in the eye, and a few hundred in Ryobi and and glassing tools. Two respirators, extra organic vapor cartridges, maybe 8 boxes of nitrile gloves, two moon suits, 4 gallons of acetone, 20 squeegees, 36 2" wide chip brushes, a dozen paint roller trays, a half dozen heavy ( 4 mil) plastic drop cloths...

A CC really is cheaper. Especially if it has semi working electronics or controls. I probably have $3K in low-midrange Lowrance gear on the 25 and it still needs a real VHF and a better bilge system. Probably $1000 in ethanol proof tanks. It will need a few hundred in A1 fuel hose. Your 20 might be cheaper in this regard. It still needs anti siphon valves, ethanol proof line, squeeze bulbs, water separators, O/B controls and instruments, if you don't have them. And a T-top. Those aren't free.

And a 150 4 stroke is too heavy for a 20 , IMO. A 150 with an OK prop probably is worse than a 115 with an optimal prop for performance. And aluminum props are $100 each. That's a lot of guesses, and a few spares between a 115 and a 150 in terms of dollars. The 150 might have 3 MPH for cruise speed over a 115. The 115 will have better low end planing speed. With a F90 or an e-tec, you won't need tabs. I have never priced them, but between 400-600 bucks smells right. Plus 14 more holes in the transom. 4 per tab, 3 per cylinder. Times 2, plus switches, pumps, controls, fusing, wiring.

I can hang with some 25-26 foot makos in a chop with a F100 on a 20. With a 20 gallon tank.

Get a SF or Master Angler with a notch, I say.

If I had the money for a motor, I would try a 90 or 115 e-tec for the weight. But I have a $1000 4 stroke 100 hp with a 4 blade and fin, and 6 hp kicker. It was super cheap. Still too heavy. But I don't need trim tabs. And it floats with a holed hull the way I worked it over.

Thanks for the advice fishstretcher. The reason I want to rebuild this boat is because I enjoy projects like this and really want a boat set up exactly the way that I want. My big boat is all fixed up and I need a new project and ran across this little guy for next to nothing. I have done my fair share of glass work and think I can build a pretty sweet boat that will be solid as a rock!! As for the engine, I can get a sweet deal on an etec 115 right now and might pull the trigger. What are your performance numbers with that f100?

I have my F100 set up for rough seas and very low speed planing so it has a hydroshield flying wing UNDER the prop which has a lot of high speed drag. And I have a stern lifting 4 blade prop. Plus I have a kicker on the transom. With that setup I don't need tabs. And it planes at 12 or 13 knots.

With that setup, WOT is 28 knots, 33?MPH. Holeshot is great even with low HP.

But a 3B prop with an above prop fin with a 115 would be LOTS faster. I am sure someone else has numbers for that.

Mine works for me. Once in a while when it is dead flat calm, I would like a few more knots. But the rest of the time it kicks butt for how I use it.

Well got the transom out and quite a bit of grinding done. She is starting to look a little better. Cant wait to start laying up some glass! Also got a cover to help with the rain and get some shade!

pics

You got a blank canvas to work with, study many rebuild post and make decisions wisely. Lots of good information up here to learn from and many will help along the way. She looks as bare as my 71 20'. Lot of work ahead of you, count on it taking 3 times as long to do it and 3 times as much money but you will have a boat 3 times as nice as most others once your done! Good luck on your venture.

I have a 71 safari and could never imagine cutting it up but too each his own. good luck with the makeover. wish you were closer could use some of the parts you have leftover. I have a 115 merc. works fine with plenty of speed.

I def have some left over parts I wont be using! I am conflicted on what the best core material would be for the sides of the hull. I dont want to put any wood back in the boat. I was wondering if coremat would be sufficient along with three support/rod holders spaced evenly down the sides. Something like the pic and a box for the fuel fill.

Got a good bit of grinding done still a bit to go! Im gonna use polyester resin for the whole project so gotta make sure its scuffed pretty good! If I were to to use vynelester resin would the grinding still be neccessary?

Nice! Now the fun begins.

Yes and no. Unless you need it flattened out, gritblast it instead. It is WAY faster. And it gets in corners. Don't skimp on washing up after and degreasing BEFORE you grind.

You need to clean and roughen for any adhesive bond.

Vinylester is technically epoxy. It just is cured like polyester. So if you get a good vinylester it is likely to stick better and be far tougher than polyester. You will know this for certain if you ever have to remove it.

And buy the real 3M 6100 half mask respirators. You will need them for resin layup. Don't break into the organic vapor cartridges. But the P100 pink filters. They are made for auto body work. Way better than what you are wearing.

I have a decent resperator that I use for painting and layup. I need to give it a good washing! Thanks for the tips!!

Got the boat squared up, cut the cabin off the cap, and glassed in the transom. I used a product called celtec and it is an awesome product to work with. Its a little heavy so dont think im gonna use it for the rest of the boat. I believe im gonna get some of that corelite and give it a whirl.

I am planning on doing a hermco bracket and am trying to figure some stuff and need to know the height from the keel to the platform. I am gonna make a transom door and wanna make sure it is above the height of the transom! If anyone has an idea it would be appreciated!

top of the platform

Sending private message.

I thought some one told me that the Hermco bracket mounted 21" above the keel but Im not a 100 percent sure. Someone that has one can chime in and confirm this. I read his mounting instructions once when I was figuring the dimensions for mine when I built it and I think that measurement was right but cant find where I saved the sheet with the info to verify it.

I contacted don and he told me 21" also so got it! Thanks.

So how high should I raise floor to have a fully self bailing boat with a little room to spare. With a hermco bracket of course and 30gal transom livewell? I plan on making a custom gafuel tank to go as far forward as possible and move everything I can forward to make it happen. If this is not feasible then I guess I could handle a leaning post/livewell :confused:

Got the stringers raised 2.5" and 4.5" at the transom. Stuck em down with cabosil and filled all the gaps with it too. Gonna start glassin them up this week!