Question ref the old 21' hull
 

I posted this on the performance thread, but maybe it's more general here.......



Maybe there is no answer to this question........

Why hasn't / didn't Seacraft revive the 21' hull as a re launched offering as a boat model ?
Seems no other 21' has the similar hull design, and was superior performer.

Not to sound crass...you are beating a dead horse.:eek:

I'm left to suppose you and others have the same question.....or just wonder why never happened.

It almost seems A GIVEN that the hull would have re surfaced as a marketed boat somewhere, called SeaCraft or other name.

And it also leaves one to wonder......why a possible "best ever" hull for 21' boat was not picked up .....to ride again.

I'm getting tired of kicking this horse every few months . . . here we go again. Hopefully this time you'll be satisfied with the answer.

The 21 and 25 were studied by Steven Loui (bigfluke on csc) of Navatek who used the hull as a base to design his own version of this hull. http://www.midweek.com/steven-loui/

http://www.navatekboatbuilders.com/sea-blade.html

http://www.midweek.com/wp-content/ga...landrews-2.jpg

http://www.fsboatworks.com/Design/

http://www.fsboatworks.com/About/

http://www.marlinmag.com/boats/boat-reviews/f-s-66

"The hull design is an adaptation of a Carl Mosely ocean racer with an early ’60s vintage. Floyd says that this patented bottom helped create SeaCraft boats.

“I grew up on SeaCrafts and said, ‘One day I’ll build a big boat with this hull.’ When the patent ran out, I adapted it to work on a big sport-fish boat. We made minor changes to the original for scale on a bigger bottom,” Floyd says."

Good job!:D
Anything else is just supposition:

Shrimp...........my question/ comment is this - surprising that another 21' boat isn't produced with the same hull as the original 21' SeaCraft. If it was so unique, providing an exceptional ride in rough seas, it should be out there now. Lots of 21' boats to choose from today with basic versions of V hulls, that pound in a chop, but the original 21 was special.
SO, surprising it wasn't revived........in the same style, as cuddy or center console.
If this tires you out. hey, what can I tell you...........rest up.

I can only guess that there is a small market for 21ft "Offshore" boats that are capable of crossing over to the Bahamas. It's a big 21 and there are LOT of factors that go into people's boat buying decision. If you are shopping for that kind of boat . . . I would imagine you want and can afford something a bit larger (like 30+ ft with a real cabin to overnight in). I think more folks are interested in taking their 21ft boats to the sandbar and not paying a lot for them . . . hence the popularity of Bayliner, wellcraft, and searay. It's pretty clear to me why Potter didn't built the 21, since he was out to make a name for himself (and did with the 23 seacraft). While the ride is of interest for you and me . . . a LOT of people don't give a rats azz as long as they can put a case beer in the cooler. The fact that it hasn't been produced in it's original form, shouldn't take anything away from it's achievements . . . which you don't seem to have much respect.

http://www.wellcraftv20.com/gallery/...esults0001.jpg
http://www.wellcraftv20.com/gallery/...Horba_21_3.jpg

Shrimp is right, most folks think that a 21' boat is too small to take to the Bahamas, but the Moesly 21 not only rides better than some much larger boats, it is absolutely "The worlds BIGGEST 21' boat", as my friend Bob used to say about his SeaCraft 21 pictured below rafted up at West End, Grand Bahama next to a 23' Formula and my 20' Seafari! And although it appears to have a small cabin under the front deck, check out the cross section in the brochure below and notice how Moesly was able to create 7' long bunks by having them extend back under the front seats! That high bow provides decent headroom, and you could sleep very comfortably with your head under the front hatch with feet back under the seats. And the cushions from those tall seats doubled as bunk cushions, so you didn't have a bunch of extra cushions taking up space! And since there was no flotation foam in those boats, they had a huge amount of storage space below the deck. I think Gillie said it took him a couple days to even FIND all the hidden storage areas on his boat!

I once figured out that I have followed Bob's "Unohu" all over the Bahamas for about 2000 miles and I have not seen or ridden in a softer riding boat, unless maybe it's a 25' Seafari! I've ridden in a 23 Sceptre, and while it did ride very nice in a short 1-2' chop, I was surprised that I could actually feel the Potter "spray knocker" strake slapping the water. None of the Moesly designs have that, and I could see how it might be even more noticeable at higher speeds in rough seas.

This is my take on the whole thing.

I agree with everything that Denny stated...That being said I think the interior of the 21 that was sold the most...the Over Nighter SUCKS!

I modeled mine after the Sportsman option. Plenty of interior space to move around. If you want a cabin get a Seafari a much better lay out.

Here is another thing to keep in mind.

RACE ANYONE!

That says it all. This boat was built for one thing and one thing only. It is exactly 21 feet long. It fits into a class, that it dominated.
Remember in the 60's race on Sunday and sell on Monday. Think of the 21 like you would think of a K-Code Mustang...meaning street legal but radio delete and very basic. FYI:None of the boats sold retail had Outboards...the ones raced were all outboard.

Now for the last part...I can't remember which one exactly Sailfish, Seahunt, or something like that is building a very nice boat, with most of the 21's bottom. They always get rave reviews...so someone is doing what you asked.

Sea Hunt is built here in Columbia, SC. I don't think I've seen one that looks like your 21. The bottom of the hull either...

I think the main question was why hasn't anyone use the hull? And I think if you check the blogs out there Seahunt or Sailfish has stated that it used the VDH by Moesly and it improved it...(I may be wrong on that part,but it sticks in my memory)

Seahunt's Bottom:
Transom: 21 degrees
Midship: 24 degrees
Entry: 60 degrees

Sailfish..Deadrise (Multi-angle) 22° - 24° 22° - 24°

Since I own a 21 I can say this...the 21 with the original windshield was UGLY! It was a 60's boat with a 50's windshield.

I think even Carl agreed that it was an exercise in futility..(windshield) They all cracked and if pounded long enough broke!

Islandtrader..........yes, that's what I'm saying, surprised there isn't another boat like this today.

For discussion, Wellcraft V20 / V21 series - a classic cuddy, roomy open cockpit for standing, chairs, fishing etc. I believe it may be the single most popular longest running production boat of all time...or close to it. Still very popular - lots in use. I have a 96', last year produced.

Now take the original Seacraft 21.........similar style, but made for hard ocean running in choppy seas. Much taller bow, deeper V, built like a tank.

So, all I'm saying here is it's surprising as I see a solid market for the original SeaCraft 21.
Trailer ability is key, it's the right size boat, and some of my friends are turning back from center consoles........had enough getting wet and cold !!

I admire the older SeaCrafts, and would like to see return / updated 21 cuddy.
At boat shows, I believe it would stand out from all the " bay boats" and offer a more comfortable alternative to the blue water cc's......Regulator, Contender etc....

I think I posted this before for you. It's a v20 Steplift and Powercat 20 both photographed and mentioned on several pages in Grayson Lynch's book "Decision for Disaster". Now read the clip from "The Amazing Mr Moesly" article from Professional Boat Builder and draw your own conclusion. Anyhoo . . . You are probably right that the hull deserves another production run, but you'll need to convince someone with $$$ to do it. You know what they say "The easiest way to get 1 million dollars building boats is to start with two million" :)

p.s. - I am a former v20 steplift owner and I started the wellcraftv20.com site in 2003 . . . I passed the torch to MJ in 2007. It's not a coincidence your search for the ultimate 21ft hull has you here on CSC.

http://www.wellcraftv20.com/gallery/...f_pigs_001.jpg
http://www.classicseacraft.com/broch...edium/0009.jpg

And . . . It's not exactly a 21ft seacraft, but I'd bet $$$$$ that Navatek's boat rides damn good ;) There's no other boat builder throwing this kind of muscle behind R+D for a 22ft boat. If you want to buy a new offshore capable dry 21/22ft boat . . . this is where I'd start. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiaPMnSZ_fw

Watch the little clip of the small seablade 16footer around 40 seconds into the video. That boat is glued to the water for a small boat.

http://www.navatekboatbuilders.com/i...rop-u24237.jpg

Raydon/Airslot/Zodiac!
 

Sorry Bigshrimpin' but it look like they cross bread a Raydon with the offspring of a Wellcraft Airslot and a Zodiac! An F-35 that does everything - but nothing well! Just my tainted, warped, verbose opinion, attempting to keep it short.

Dang, Terry of the Union Jack, who'd a thunk a high tech hulls would be so well - ugly...
Sorry big fluke. At least you have a handful of Seafari 25s to look at. I definitely get the amas thing for the big pool. I get thrown around in big swells in the Seafari 20 so watching those small Seablade viddys is impressive.

Dang Trader Terry, quit baggin on my bulbous windshield - it not like its an AMC Pacer... and the Overnighter layout Doesn't Suck - its still a freakin huge fishing deck and great for the CA cold-water long ride chill factor...

Regarding the revival/continuation of the SeaCraft hulls, in the last last year or so, Thresher Boats in San Clemente CA is re-presenting the 20 hull, pairing them up with the Mercury Command Thrust 115 for around $27K. I believe the hulls are made in somewhere in Asia, maybe Hong Kong - pretty sure Padre Frank mentioned the Asian builder a few years back. Seems they were splashing Bertram hulls too.

Sailfish 22 and 24 are still clearly beamed out SeaCraft VDR hulls the 22' an 8.5' beam and 9' beam on the 24'.

bgreene you might ask 3rdDay what he thought it might cost to splash a 21 hull. I'm pretty sure he has a good idea, because he backed off of the idea, and i believe he was in the composites industry...

The concept is still alive and well.

"I'm a child of the '60s do you really need an explanation?"

Aw...did we hurt the feelings of Gilli's little boat with the puny straight six!
Well I'm over PC correctness...LOL, I stand by my statement...:D:D:D

Besides you are original only once and you have an original and that is COOL! :cool:

21 Moesly
 

I don't have a Seacraft and in fact have never even ridden in one, but have been bitten by the bug after seeing the Moesly 21s on this site.

I understand the question. It seems like several boats with lesser pedigrees and reputations have been copied more often- take the Formula 233. A great boat and it has withstood the test of time. Think how many copies have been made- 20+? Why it and not the Moesly 21?

My guess is that as a poster mentioned it was a 21, and although a big 21 most people didn't see it as a "true" offshore boat. Factor that with how big it was and the cost of the Moesly 21 was probably the same or higher than most other 23s in the market.

A question I have is that I understand from reading the Mr Moesly started building and testing a 23 but then scaled it back to 21 which was then raced and put into production. I understand he also said that generally speaking a bigger boat will ride better. If so, why did he scale back to 21? Was it to meet certain class restrictions? Was it that the 21 was faster given the available horsepower outboards at the time?

Just curious. And thanks for all the insight and letting me lurk!

I like that windshield and I really think the 21's layout maximizes the use of space. The layout reminds me of a sailboat cockpit in a way with all the storage. It's beautiful in a very functional sense. I really wish there was a 21 hull with a seafari cap/cabin. I suppose that idea turned into the 25.

I think this is the answer and it's just a guess on my part . . . since the highest HP was 100 available in outboard form. Shortening the boat to 21 would make it lighter and faster, but that's just a guess on my part.

http://store.oldmercs.com/category_s/792.htm

I found this quote from Sandy.
"Carla said the best racers wanted the shortest hulls for less weight and more top end."

http://www.classicseacraft.com/commu...=24967&page=14

I don't know how I missed this one on Carla's site.

http://www.moeslyseacraft.com/upload...2013-no144.pdf

http://www.wellcraftv20.com/gallery/...m_seacraft.jpg

Ok I give up...you love your kid...and I thought my kid was ugly so I gave it plastic surgery....:eek:

You know Carla is building one.. This is what she and Skip are contemplating ...Looks pretty cool!

Attachment 11621

That would sell and I would be on the waiting list! More over I would love to see it with a 2 foot extension utilizing it as a eurotransom. Now that would be a must have 23.

The Seafari house on that hull looks right.

When Carl made the mold outta plywood, 2x4`s ,and Formica for the dedicated race hulls,
he made the transom adjustable for a reason. Just as Tim has said. Carl knew the 25 would be faster given the power of the day, but you would increase face washing and spinal compression.

Mark Hauptner ran with Carl in `67 on the Haulover to KW race. Mark said they had trip
110`s and lost one around Summerland Key. Mark said they set a new ob record of 62 kts.
Now, were these special motors? If Frank Brown and Mr K were involved, I would say without a doubt.

The first two hulls popped from the mold were the only 25`s.
One red and one yellow.

10 total were made. Anyone have a break down of the lengths and numbers?



Cheers,
GFS

Wow nice workup. I remember the early photos when the safari cap was salvaged and some early drawingg, but never saw this... I love it! Color scheme too. More sketches please.

Here is a quote from Richie Powers that raced both 21 and the larger purpose built hulls.....

Quote from member X7champ (serious offshore) "I used to race them. The original seacraft co. was founded by Carl Mosely and his wife Jean. Carl used to race his boats and caught the attention of Carl Kiekhaefer of mercury who bought several boats to race his outboards against the OMC offshore factory teams. I am talking about 1964 to 1968/69. We used to buy the hulls from Moesly without decks and build them out at lake X we had custom plywood decks glassed over, most all boats had tandem cockpits, the days before the throttleman position. I had my own factory boats. First was 21' with twin 110 in line 6`s next was 25' with triple 135 hp in line 6`s. Carl also built a 29' race boat. I believe it was 1968/9 when Bill Potter came in and bought the company from Carl, with the intention of mass production. The real Seacraft was Carl Moesly, Potter actually just produced what Carl had designed and built, he was not a designer or manufacturer, just happened into the industry. I became good friends with Bill and speak with him to this day. Bottom line, the Seacraft is still a great boat and has a pedigree background, here in Fla. people still seek them out and restore them. One of my favorites was a little 15' sport boat that they built, when I was a test driver for Merc. I ran one for many hours, we used to run the Renault 60 & 80 hp mercruiser packages, Freddie Kiekhaefer had one custom built with Mercruiser 140 hp that was really fun. Most of the 15`s were a color of Burnt Orange, if you ever find one let me know, I would love to have it. Good luck with a Seacraft, you cannot go wrong."

Very nice
 

The 21 looks nice like that. Looks like Carla inherited some of her Dad's talent.

Since there are so few of the 21s available, any idea if anyone has the offsets?

Its been a while since they have posted a picture of their project, I.T. you should talk Carla into posting up a few current photos. I could look at her lines all day. (the boat)


Last pic I seen, hope she don't mind me reposting:

Attachment 11625

I can report that the Seafari cap is now solidly attached. I have some newer photos I could post with Carla's permission, but she probably has some better ones. I've attached a sketch I made up by overlaying some scaled photos and brochures of the Seafari and the 21. The headroom in that cabin is impressive with that high bow and is probably similar to a Seafari 25! It will be one unique sharp looking boat!

Skip and I have taken a 1962 raceboat hull, 21' and have added a Seafari top to her ... and yes, she looks absolutely awesome with her new lines as I feel we have beautifully blended in the lines of the two pieces ... and now there is an incredible amount of space in the cabin.

Thanks to Bushwacker for finding the Seafari top ... to Flexplat for doing some of the "cartoons" as he calls them (IslandTrader posted one).

I do have some more photos of our progress and will gladly share ... once I'm back in town and have access to them.

Our progress has been too slow for posting and WAS waiting for a more finished boat to share ... but now is a good time too.
Thanks for your interest.
carla & skip

Only a rocket engineer would use a 9.9 mm = 1' scale. It's pretty cool looking Denny. Still keeps all the sexy lines.

I put the scale on that sketch so I could use it later to pick off some rough dimensions! I believe the cap is actually installed a little further forward than shown in my sketch, so the hatch is just aft of the anchor locker. That will allow Carla to just stand up in the hatch to handle the anchor and lines without having to get on the deck! That's a good thing, because the hatch is so far above the bunks that she'll need a ladder to climb out on the deck! Haven't been aboard the boat for over a year so memory is a bit foggy, but I think the bunks are a little lower than shown. It seemed like there was a ton of headroom over the bunks, maybe 3.5-4'! That will be a very roomy cabin!

I believe they kept the aft cabin bulkhead about where it's shown in the sketch, but they basically slid the whole cap and windshield forward about a foot, so that will give Skip a lot more room aft of the windshield to mount electronics, etc.

Carla, I think posting some pics and sketches of what your're planning is better than waiting to show the finished product. There are so many creative folks on this site that there is no telling how many great ideas you'll get if you turn this bunch loose on that project! Denny

Wow that is going to be one hell of a mini yacht

Many qualified imagineers here.
And I am here also.

21' Seafari Photos
 

There are many good people on this site and ideas are welcomed.

Here are some photos ... the boat is squeezed between property line fence & house, so getting distance shots is not possible.

Progress has been slow and design concepts are in the making at each step of the way.

We have raised the transom a couple inches, planning on twin Etecs ... 25" shaft. Dip in transom at center will accommodate a 30" shaft for single engine. We prefer twins for shallower draft & also stabilization.

Aft cockpit flooring has also been raised a couple inches. Temp scraps down for walking. Hope to replace with the real thing soon.

Need good helm design and also would like seating to accommodate 4 people.
Maybe boxes under pedestal seats for ice box, fish box or storage, water tank, sink, etc.

That's where we are ...
And here's a photo of where we started ... when we first got her.

What a neat boat she's going to be! Really will stand out:)
Rod

A few hours running the original 21' in typical 3'-4 ' ocean chop here off NJ coast and I'd have a performance opinion / comparison.

Awesome Carla!!
I got dibs on catching the first fish on her and stinking up that Fishbox before you hit the Sandbars and Key Bars :eek: