Please critique my 23' CC Rebuild plans
 

Well this time last year I thought I would be rebuilding my 1975 23' CC. Unfortunately, family health issues kept it from happening. Now it's time.

Was hoping some of you would chime in on my plan. Since I live in a fiberglass supply wasteland and I happen to be driving to central Florida in about 10 days, I wanted to finalize some materials and pick them up while I am down there.

I only get to use the boat for about 3 weeks a year but when I get the opportunity I am on it for about 10 hours a day. When it is home, it is kept in a building that I built specifically for it. So it stays dry and out of the sun. All that said, I can't justify spending more money than necessary to keep it going for another 55 years.

I plan on using Epoxy for everything, I have some experience with epoxy but have never touched Vinyl Ester, which is the only other thing I have even considered. Keep in mind I am in western Virginia so it will get cold for periods this winter. As to core materials all the big items will be marine ply, I may use some foam board to keep down weight on some boxes and such. I am going to enclose the transom including a curved top and put my existing 25”, becoming 30”(with 5” extension), 2 stroke back on for now. Down the road I fully expect the 2 stroke to be replaced, but I just can't get rid of an engine that has been so good to me. My plan is to build a bracket, ala Strick, or Hermco. Dual full flotation with platform. It will also get a new sole but will keep the step up casting deck. New sole will be raised 1 1/2” and scuppers will be routed out the back. The finish will be paint, I have used Tom's (RIP) Signature finish before and will use it again or something very similar. It was a dream to work with and has held up great. Console will get refreshed and raised by 2”, I'm 6'6” and the bottom of the t-top rod holders hurt.

This hull is unmolested other than at some point, the fuel tank was replaced. An additional 30gal tank was put into the box that is immediately in front of the console and a weir was added to the splash well, to separate the in floor live well from the splash well. The boat at some point had twins on it, so there are patches/plugs in the transom.


So here is the “plan”.

De-rig; Remove console and t-top as well as engine and transom transducers.

Remove transom core and stern cap / boxes up to the hawse pipes along with sole forward to the front of the splash well enclosure.

Grind around the outside of the current motor cutout and layup 2 layers of 1708, CSM out, and then mount a waxed piece of melamine board against the outside and roll out. While still wet, layup 1700 in the cut out to build to original thickness. I am thinking 2 layers may do it. When I mount the melamine I have some pieces of angle iron ready to add on to the outside to remove a bow if it exists.
That should give me a flat transom outer skin. Hopefully while still wet layup a piece of 1708, CSM toward the stern, across the inside wrapping to the sides and bottom by 6”, having ground original glass for the new glass to lay on.

After saturating ply, using a epoxy cabosil butter laminate (2) ¾” pieces and one 1/2” piece of marine ply into the transom, . All set in peanut butter to eliminate voids.

Laminate 4 layers of 1700 as inside skin tabbing 4, 7, 10 and 13”

When do I cut the holes for the scuppers? I was thinking of doing a water test before painting and then figuring out the scuppers. I would love for them to be angled down a little. However cutting them in after the bracket is mounted would be a pain. And I think I would rather not have to demount the bracket. I know my current water line, so maybe I should just put them where I think they should go after the sole is in.
Drain plug will be drilled oversize and filled then redrilled for the garboard drain.

Remove sole and assuming dry stringers laminate 1 1/2” of ply to the tops. Wrapping with 1708, csm down. And topping with one layer 1700.

Add cleats to perimeter of sides for outside sole to sit on.

Fit 1/2” Ply sole. Scarf joints or use butt blocks? Add backing for console and leaning post bolt down Laminate underside using 10oz cloth after saturating
Laminate top with 2 layers of 1700. running up sides 3, 6 inches.

For raising the console 2” I need to either build up a perimeter on the sole or build up the bottom of the console flange, not sure what will be best? If I build a base on the sole I could laminate ply to get the 2” and then fasten to that and not worry about backing blocks. My t-top attaches to the console.

I will build a transom unit that will include storage and a center live well. It will not come to the floor and will taper back at the bottom to allow for toe room. Live well will bump out a little in the center and be oval. I am figuring 30 gal or so. For this I plan on building it out of foam or 1/2” ply and laminating it with 2 layers 10oz. I am leaning toward front doors for access vs top hatches. I plan on keeping the rear of the bait well at least 5” off the transom to allow access for bracket bolts and rigging. I intend to rig thru the transom not the bracket unless there is a reason to do otherwise.

I plan on creating a storage compartment behind the leaning post with a drop in box that can be removed to access the connections at the rear of the main fuel tank, Then have another bilge access hatch behind that(close to the transom) to get to the bilge pumps, high water alarm and thru hull and pump for the bait tank.

So that's the easy part right, next comes the bracket build.
Plan on building a melamine form and laying up starting with 1708 csm out, followed by all 1700. So bracket guys, forgetting about dimensions in this discussion what should my layup schedule be? And what about coring. I figure the clamping board can use the same ply coring schedule as the transom, 2 x 3/4” +1/2” but how about coring all the other bucket surfaces. I think Strick/Bigshrimpin do not use coring other than the clamp board. Is that what I should do or should I add some 1/2” ply. I plan on 3 stringers and 2 pie plates. As to the platform, it will need to be notched around my trim tab acttuators and I am thinking no coring but some sort of half round fiberglass ribs. Either way I am thinking a 3” platform. So what would the layup be? Again thinking a melamine mold with 3” lip laided up with 1708, csm toward mold / followed by 1700. Keep in mind for this discussion I am, really trying to come up with a materials list more than anything.

I am thinking of starting with 30 gal of epoxy 3:1 from US composites,.
1 full roll of 50” 1700 cloth 45 degree biax 100 yards
1 full roll of 50” 10 oz cloth 125 yards
4 gallons of cabosil
4 quarts of fairing filler to mix with epoxy
15 yards of 50” 1708 45 degree
100 yards of 4” 8.7 oz cloth tape
100 yards of 8” 8.7 oz cloth tape



Anything that else that I should be thinking about while I am on my materials buying spree.

Any and all feedback would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Michael

Sounds good but is the transom bracket worth extra effort & $ when increasing engine to 30””

For me, other than fixing rot issues, the reason I am doing this is to get more cockpit space. That was the driving force, fixing the rot is just a bonus.

Boy that is a lot of info...skimmed thru it twice so forgive me if I don't cover much...for starters:

For building parts such as the bracket better off using poly or vinyl ester there is no need to make it out of epoxy...waste of money...for bonding to existing fiberglass on the hull then epoxy is better...I like vinyester as it is easier to work with and wets out what ever fiberglass you decide to use without worrying about binders not being compatible with the epoxy...on the idea of raising the deck on a 23 it is not really necessary especially if you are going to go with a flotation bracket..but it's your boat so do it how you want...on coring the bracket of course the transom of the bracket will be cored and the swim platform should have some sort of coring as well...Tim and I made several molds melamine seems to work best...sprayed with duratec and then the first two layers should be heavy matt... after that 1708 till you get the desired thickness...1/2" thick around the corners and 3/8" thick around the sides and bottom is kinda what we did. It's been a long time...dont forget to glass the swim platform to the tub as I've had to come back and glass the seam when I just bonded the two parts with potter putty...it would be a small hairline crack that looked unsightly. I think I've built 4 brackets total and they were all a learning experience..but they all worked well when finished...so thats all the experience I have on them....More later..

strick

I agree with the above^. He really knows his stuff so take his advice to heart. I Use vinyl-ester or polly on molded parts also. It dose work much better. Epoxy is king for bonding or secondary bonds to old glass. Molding parts is different.


The brackets Ive built I seamed the platform on the front bottom side vs the top rear of the ear if that makes since. It takes more finish work and sanding but luckily I haven't seen no cracks yet like the hermco or the 2 piece ones get. I used thicken resin with cabosil and fiber glass pellets where the swim platform bonds to the outboard mounting ear with several layers of glass on top of that to prevent the cracking. Knock on wood I haven't got any cracks on my bracket yet. I build mine a little different than they do. Instead of over lapping the outboard tab with the swim platform ear skin I glass the front of the mount ear separate and finish it out after bonding the two pieces together. I think the problems can be solved by grinding down the seems, feathering them back and then using glass to make the seem solid. Ive only built three outboard brackets before and one was aluminum and the other has never been in the water yet so I don't know much as some but do be careful on how you bond the pieces together and finish them if you do the 2 piece approach to prevent cracking at those points.


Also like mentioned, most raise the floor in the 20' hulls but the 23' really don't need it unless it is rear heavy with a standard brackets and heavy twins maybe.


I get the 6'6" thing. Im only 5'8" but my dad was 6'7". Growing up all the tables in the workshop were taller and everything had extra head clearance. When you raise the console since your mentioned doing it from the bottom possibly (think you mentioned that) I would add the height you need then turn the flange inwards instead of outwards. It just looks cleaner to me that way. You could seem a 2" piece in if you cut it but with the slant on the sides it would not fit up right. I would cut the factory flange off then add what you want at the same angles as the original console sides then mold a new flange on the extension you add.


Scupper holes height, if you raise the deck you should be able to keep them above the water easily. If you decide not to raised it you may want to be more carful. But you mention taking the bracket on and off but if you want to really do a custom bracket and keep it close to the water you will need to float the hull with weight in it to figure out that height before even building the bracket so you know the dims to build it by. I know when I did my bracket I made the swim platform lower than most so my kids and Australian Shepard's could get in the boat easily. A lot of them are too high. You will need to know the water line to adjust the height of the swim platform or at least know how it sits to get the angle of the swim platform right. Mine is not parallel with the hull bottom. It has a slight angle built into it so water will run off it. Mine sits up in the front a bit so the way the hull sits will effect those dims. I didn't float mine but had a good guess where the water line would be. I also made the flotation chamber as low as I could and wide as I could to get max bouncy at rest. Lots of figuring to build a custom bracket.


One last thing the lip on my bracket swim platforms are 2" instead of 3" as most are. With a good lay up they will not flex as I stand on mine all the time fishing. Shoot, I even hit the dock with the back corner of it going fairly fast and it held up well. It dose have core cell on the bottom but not a full piece all the way to the lips. it stops 2" from the edges. This was mainly to give room to bolt it on. My bottom outboard bolts fall right below the swim platform. The more lip the stronger though. Ive seen some with no lip at all but I would do a lip of strength.


Like said you got a lot of info there and sounds like you got the right idea but this is just my 2 cents on what I could remember after reading your post.

Thanks guys, boy sure was hoping you all would chime in. Thanks for reading my dissertation.

I know very little about Vinyl ester, but was considering it for parts not going to be glassed to existing structure. Will need to learn more, so I will use it correctly. The raise the deck idea was to allow the large suppers 1-1/2" x 3" in the stern. Maybe I should make them a little thinner and add a 3rd one in the center. I come in Jupiter inlet occasionally and the number of bow sticks that happen there make me want to get rid of water fast.
I need to think more about how you do your platform construction FlyingFrizzle I don't quite have my head wrapped around it yet.

Any considerations on the vinyl ester if I am doing this at temps below 60*?

So as a general principle, how much Vinyl ester should I need to do the bracket, and how much for the sole? Sole will be a bottom layer of 10oz and 2 top layers of 1700 and would include the casting deck. I will attach the sole with epoxy, both tabbing and putty. How much epoxy should I count on for the transom?

One other question, when a part is made with Vinyl ester do you fair with vinyl ester or epoxy based filler? Is there a time frame that would make a difference, Ie. after vinyl ester cures for month then do you have to use epoxy?

Ok, trying to get on board with the vinyl ester suggestions for the bracket. When I use epoxy the CSM is eliminated except for the exterior faces. My understanding is that CSM with epoxy does little for strength and adds weight. If I go with vinyl ester do I need to put CSM between each layer in other words use 1708 vs 1700? And do I also need to put CSM between each layer of plywood? On the plus side seems like vinyl ester would be easier to use in the colder temperatures.

You can fair it with whatever you want just remember what ever you prime with it must be compatible...for instance...fair the part with epoxy then you need to use epoxy primer like awlgrip primer....Duratek says they’re primer will bind with the most Epoxies....well I found one it won’t bind to...it’s probably better to just keep it simple...honestly I would recommend using poly based resin for the bracket and then use a poly based fairing compound and primer compatible with those...The rule of thumb is you can epoxy over anything but not vice versa.

Strick

I used vinyl-ester on the brackets I did mainly as I had a 55 gallon drum. If I had to buy it by the 5 gallon pail I would price it out poly vs the VE. I have found VE for only 20% more than polyester resin which is worth the upgrade to me. Most of the time it is 40% more and epoxy twice that. VE works just like polyester its just way stronger, more water resistant, better elasticity and very similar to epoxy properties. VE uses MekP just like Poly, you work it the same and all. It works well with gel coat also. The way I look at it you can use epoxy on anything but once you have epoxy down you can only put epoxy on epoxy. I use interlux 2000e primer or prime con mainly over the VE but you can use probably what ever. If you put epoxy down make sure you put epoxy over it. There are a lot of good epoxy fairing compounds out there and I mainly only use epoxy compounds to fair. I don't fair like most though. I treat fairing compound like bondo on a car. Least amount possible. Like you mentioned about the csm outer layers, I try to fair into the csm and used fairing compound to spot fill. I always try to avoid skimming out an entire area. Im not saying you cant do that successfully, I just try not to. Also you can do 1700 on 1700 with VE but most people recommend using 1708 or csm between layers. I use a lot of 1708 but when doing vacuum bagging light parts with low resin to cloth ratio I use 1700. Far as the scuppers, your inlet- I would make them big as you can. Never hurts to have more than less. Just make sure they are above the water line. The 23 hull done correctly dose not need a raised deck but many do probably mainly they have heard that about the 20' hulls and it has carried over. Raising the deck only hurts loosing free board so if your not worried about free board than it wont hurt. It is a give and take there. Far as the bracket deal, Big Shrimping and Strick have done more than me so you may be better off directing that at them but I like to size mine custom to maximize flotation, tub low as possible, tub wide as possible, swim platform low as possible to the water and set back short as possible with out motors hitting transom. Also getting the outboard height right is a challenge to figure out and how tall to make the mounting ear on the bracket. Most brackets work but don't maximize efficiency and outboard needs to go higher until it runs out of adjustment. Far as how much resin or cloth to build one. A bunch. I would have 15-20 gallons on hand just to do the bracket. Buy the cloth by the roll cheep off ebay and such. Make sure it is good cloth as all 1708s are not all equal. Far as temps under 60 degs. The VE shines. I don't use epoxy when it is cold. With VE or poly you can just flash it harder with the Mekp. Epoxy you need a winter mix or part "B". I like VE as I can flash it hard and sand on it 30 mins latter. Don't flash it too hard with the MekP though or it can make the resin lay up brittle. As much work as you will be doing it would be cheaper to buy a drum but if you get it by the 5 gallon pail you can re-order as the shelf life of VE is listed as 6 months. Ive used it 2 years old and it just needed a little more Mekp. Ive used Epoxy 8-10 years old and it hardened fine. Just took 3-5 days to do so. I wouldn't recommend using it that old but Im cheap sometimes and long as you do a test piece first you know what your getting into. Start a build thread and others will chime in as you move along with it.

Also don't be afraid to search the site. Our search function sucks. Use the google search bar and search for what you like and just add this to the end of it and it will search this site only:


site:http://www.classicseacraft.com


There were a lot of good post/threads 5-10 years ago with wealth's of info. Read the archives and you will know more about seacraft hulls or hull repair than you ever wanted to. If I had a penny for every post ive read or studied I would have all my hulls restored and running....

Thanks for all the input. So Flyingfrizzle, if you were making a bracket with vinyl ester would you use csm between each layer of woven Ie. 1208 or 1708 vs 1700? And more importantly what would you do between layers of plywood in the transom of the bracket?

Over the years I have read a lot of those old threads, I'll go back over them again, unfortunately we lost most of the pictures when photobucket went south.

Yea, Photobucket sucks for that deal. They should of grandfathered in pictures uploaded prior to the date of screwing people and holding their uploads for ransom.


Layers between the plys in the transom of an hull or bracket rear-


With VE and poly I normally add two layers of 1708, one facing one way and the second opposite laying the csm layers on the ply and the biax side against each other. If I don't do that I will just add stright csm. I like having the csm on the wood as it will wick the resin out of it. The csm will hold higher percentages of resin and have more to give to the wood long as you wet it out well so it don't leave dry spots after the wood soaks it up. Far as strength this really don't add much to any. Honestly doing like they did at the factory and stapling the sheets together will work just fine. The outer and inner layers are what make the strength. Think of an I beam. I just do it mainly to saturate the wood as much as possible with resin. I also thin the resin with styrene or acetone to get the resin viscosity down so it can soak in easier. I normally buy thin voc resin to start with or infusion resin as you can hand lay it up and it wets out great. Stuff that needs thicker resin I just add cabosil like on verticals that want to run. VE and poly harden fast enough that you can just keep working it to it kicks and then it will stay in place anyhow. So whether or not you do a center layer between the core or not I don't think it matters just have good thick layers sandwiching the core in the middle. It may add some compression strength for you bolts but there other things you can do to aid in that. Using marine ply I would hot coat it with super thin resin with minimal mekP 3-5 times until the wood wont take it any longer. Something else I started doing was fully encapsulating the wood transom cores prior to installing them in the hulls. Lay up the inner side with 75% of the lay up and add a little to the back side and make sure it is wrapped 100% around the core. I cut the ends on angles to make the cloth to lay down and sand the wood so it is a smooth transition for the cloth to lay on. Once I get The entire core sealed up with VE or poly I bond it to the old hull skin with epoxy resin. In the back of a bracket tub you can lay it up wet on wet and use VE for all of it. On older 30 year hulls the epoxy gives you that strong secondary bond to the old glass where as on a bracket transom you can do it in the "green" time window for a primary bond. Now after I have it bonded into the rear of the hull/bracket tub I will add filets around the inside edges and then lay two sheets of 1708 over the inner side lapping it on the hull sides to tie the entire core to the hull. After that plenty of tabbing. You can do this with VE or the epoxy but like mentioned I generally only use epoxy when bonding two cured pieces together as an secondary bond unless there is epoxy there already and that forces you to do epoxy on top of the previous epoxy. By sealing the core 100% prior to installing it there is no to little chance of water getting into to the wood ply unless you drill holes in it which you would want over drill to seal with resin when you did. Less likely for air voids and any gaps can be filled with thickened resin.


Far as the bracket-


Laying up the tub I have used 1708 mainly because you have to build up so much thickness and 1708 builds thickness faster. You could start with Gel coat or primer then 3-5 layers of csm and do all 1700 after that but you would really need to add a lot and pull an vacuum on it to insure the layers get bonded well together. Puncture resistance, over all flex, strength and crushing resistance where the bolts go have to be observed also. I do stingers in the tubs and add core to spots of the swim platform as well. I haven't cored an entire tub but modified a dusky bracket one time that was cored with balsa wood. It would be in your favor to make the bracket light but that's hard to do with fiberglass. I have built them from aluminum also and they are lighter for sure. Maybe some others with bracket experience will chime in as I would like to know what they have done and what works far as lay up thickness without flexing. I tend to over build stuff lol.

Thanks FlyingFrizzle, I think I will go with 1.5 oz csm on each side of all wood, and use vinyl ester. I read somewhere I think on one of daytrip01's treads that 3 layers of 1700 are stronger than three layers of 1708 and weigh less. So I will try and build strength with 1700. My whole plan was based on epoxy, but I think I am getting more comfortable with vinyl ester. Thank you for all your, along with everyone elses input.

Where did you find vinyl ester in 55 gal drums? I have search in my area and can't even find gallons.

Got motor off, t-top off and console out today. I will start a build thread shortly.

I got my VE drum a long time ago from a local from a boat builder, He was building a hard top for a sportfisher and ended up with more drums than he needed. I got it on a discount. It was a low viscosity VE infusion resin as he was infusing the hardtop but I have really liked the thin resins for fast wet out. Matter of fact that's about all I will buy now are thinner viscosities when it comes to resins even epoxy. What I had was an AOC product but there are a lot of different types out there. I have gotten other types from local boat builders, Sometimes if you show up with a few clean buckets they will sell you whatever you want out of their drums or either order you one. Price around as there was a new repair shop that opened local to me and I priced a drum of general poly from them and they wanted an arm and a leg. Some shops will look out for you and sell at their price and some will mark it up 30%. I would check with some local boat builders local to you or open a commercial account with an distributer that will deliver. A drum will easily meet minimum order requirements or cost normally.


The VE resin came from Composites One which distributes all over the US, most local builders to me use them for all kinds of marine supplies as they carry lots of stuff


https://www.compositesone.com/people/about/locations/


I buy my epoxy from US composites and they also have VE resin. They will sell in kits from 1 gallon up to 5 gallons.


http://www.uscomposites.com/polyesters.html


You probably wont find VE local on a shelf (I wouldn't want some old resin that has been sitting on a shelf awhile no how) but you should be able to order it from a lot of locations.

Composites One usually sells vinyl ester but they have it in 55 gal drums if you want 5 gal pails they will do that but you have to wait till they pour it for you...if you are doing a big project (which you are) consider opening an account with Composites One for all your resin needs...other stuff get from wherever you can find it. I never used anything but 1708 and heavy matt (for the first 2 layers) on the brackets I did just be sure to alternate the 1708 so the fibers are not going in the same direction all the time...

another thing to consider that I don't see mentioned ever is the type of washer used to bold the bracket to the transom...Square washers (plate washers) are far stronger then round washers so I usually had some ss 1/4" thick 2x2" washers made up (welding shop) for the bracket...you probably can find these already pre made if you search.

strick

I spent quite a while on the phone this morning with the regional rep from Composites One. He is going to work on getting me a price for a 55 gallon drum of resin. He is based out of North Carolina, and hopefully he can get some within a 2 hour or so drive from me. Funny that you both mentioned them today.

Search for 316 ss unistrut washers. We use them all the time in industrial electrical mounting hangers. They are common with 3/8" and 1/2" holes and measure 1 1/2" x 1 1/2" normally.


For backing brackets and outboard bolts I just normally use 4"x 1/4" aluminum flat bar cut down to size.