question for FELLOWSHIP And OTHER members

[LITTLEBISHOP]

Hey Fellowship, I am hoping you might be able to help me with a problem ( any other members are welcom to jump in!) I know that you have done quite a bit of restoration on your seacraft, and I was wondering if you have ever seen ant thing like this.O.K. here it goes. After using my 23 1973 seacraft sceptre for one season then taking it out of the water last fall I noticed a crappy repair job done on the centerline ( in the bow section) it looks like the previous owner patched a section of the foward keel with one strip of fiberglass cloth, after peeling it off I noticed an ugly spot ( it seems as though the boat was either run aground or years of beaching the boat had left a bare , worn section of original hull) The spot was so worn that a gentle push with a scredriver tip went right thru the hull. After seeing this I decided to study the west system book on hull repair. So I sanded out the bad repair and while doing so I dislodged some soft ,poorly placed sealent, I think from a previous repair. After cleaning the area ,I found the foward stringer, Damp but not too bad. The weird thing is that the fiberglass in the bow section is about 1/4'' thick, but then it becomes solid on each side of the stringer. When I put my finger in the hole I find A HOLLOW space running about 10" foward and aft of the hole. I'm thinking the best way to repair it is to inject epoxy into the HOLLOW voids, let it dry then put a few layers of cloth on top, then fair and sand. Do you have any better ideas? If you send my your Email address, I can sent you some PHOTOS, That way you can really see what I'm talking about! That goes for any other member who wants to help out! Thanks Marc littlebishop@erols.com THE HOLES in the photo are about 3''x 2''

[ June 25, 2002, 02:21 PM: Message edited by: MARC ]

[John R]

Marc - here are the pics you e-mailed me - OUCH!







[ June 25, 2002, 02:51 PM: Message edited by: John R ]

[Scott]

WOW....That had to hurt!!!!

Marc... personally what I would do is get some backing in those holes (thin plywood) and build it up from there. That WEST system book has alot of good info for what your about to do.

Clean everything up and feather out those edges. Cut the plywood backing to fit inside the hole and use some resin/epoxy to hold the ply backing in place (this will act as a support/backing for your glass work so as you build the glass up from the outside it doesnt "push through" to the inside of the boat). Once that’s dry I would start layering glass to build your hull back to its original shape. Once you get many layers of glass in there, I would then sand it out and fill any imperfections with epoxy and cabosil…. Then fair the area smooth. I hope thats clear!!

As for putting epoxy into those voids....I personally wouldn’t do it .... you'll need alot of epoxy first off and there was nothing there to begin with….and secondly when the epoxy is taking up that size void and you have a high volume of epoxy and its that thick, deep or whatever you want to call it .... when it starts flash off and cure there is a huge exothermic reaction (I've melted many poly mixing buckets and had smoke come out of one [img]images/icons/shocked.gif[/img] )..... and I dont know how good that much heat would be for the rest of the boat in that area...

Good luck with the repair work…. good thing you found it before you had real trouble!!!

[ June 25, 2002, 03:28 PM: Message edited by: Scott ]

[LITTLEBISHOP]

Scott, thanks for the advice, I'm on the phone with WEST SYSTEMS now!

[ November 08, 2002, 12:08 AM: Message edited by: MARC ]

[FELLOW-SHIP]

HA MARC
SORRY TO HEAR ABOUT THIS PROBLEM AND LOOKED AT THE PICTURES PLUS READ SCOTT’S MESSAGE. SCOTT HAS SAID EVERYTHING I WOULD HAVE SAID AND PROBABLY EXPRESSED HIM SELF BETTER THAN ME. THE ONLY THING I MIGHT ADD WOULD BE TO POSSIBLY COME IN FROM THE TOP OF THE DECK AND GO DOWN TO START YOUR REPAIR. I KNOW THAT ANOTHER HOLE AND ANOTHER JOB TO FIX BUT YOU WOULD GAIN VALUABLE ACCESS TO THE AREA AND COULD SUPPORT THE STRUCTURAL NEEDS OF THIS REPAIR JOB. SOME TIMES TO MAKE A BIGGER MESS IS THE BEST WAY TO FIX SOMETHING LIKE THAT HOLE YOU HAVE. I PERSONALLY WOULD HAVE SOME CONCERN FROM THE STRUCTURAL STANDPOINT BECAUSE OF WHERE THIS HOLE IS LOCATED. IF IN THE FUTURE YOU HIT SOMETHING LIKE A FLOATING BOARD YOU MIGHT NEED THAT ADDITIONAL STRUCTURAL SUPPORT IT COULD MAKE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A OOPS AND A S.O.S. CALL. I FILLED IN THE 4 AIR VENT HOLES ON THE OUTSIDE OF THE HULL BY USING SIMILAR METHODS STATED BY SCOTT THE ONLY DIFFERENCE IS I USED FIBERGLASS SHEETING FOR THE BACKING INSTEAD OF PLYWOOD. I THINK THAT THE WEST SYSTEM IS THE ONLY METHOD I WOULD USE IN THIS TYPE OR REPAIR EPOXY DOES MUCH BETTER THAN POLYESTER RESIN WHEN IT COMES TO ADHESION PROPERTIES I WOULD ALSO USE THEIR 406 FAIRING MATERIAL TO THICKEN IT UP. YOU CAN MAKE THAT STUFF LIKE PUTTY AND TROWEL IT IN WITH AMPLE SUPPORT. I GUESS YOU WILL NEED TO MAKE THE CALL ABOUT WORKING FROM THE BOTTOM OR COMING IN FROM THE TOP. THAT LOOKS LIKE BOTTOM PAINT ON THE BOAT SO IT WOULD MATTER IN THE FUTURE IF YOU USE EPOXY ONLY IF YOU DECIDED TO RE GEL COATED THE BOAT MAKES A DIFFERENCE WITH EPOXY.
FELLOW-SHIP [img]images/icons/mad.gif[/img]

[LITTLEBISHOP]

Fellow-ship, Thanks for the feedback. West system gave me the same advice. Cutting from the inside is a hassle, because I have a cuddy. First I've got to cut out some molded structure to get acess from the inside out. I think I'm going to build up the sides of the hole with some epoxy, then do the suggested 15 layers of glass on the sanded 12 to 1 bevel as west suggested. The funny thing is that the boat sat on a moring ball in the water all summer with that crack barely covered by someone who previously owned the boat( and he had some pretty poor repair skills) I didnt find any water in the bilge and the boat did not sink, so I think the area is enclosed in epoxy, which does not allow water to migrate anywhere else in the boat? who knows problems, problems!

[ November 08, 2002, 12:09 AM: Message edited by: MARC ]

[hermco]

Make sure the area is dry,freshly sanded and wiped down with acetone before you begin the repair.I once saw a guy do a spot for Ship Shape TV about repairing areas that have no access from the inside of the boat.He used a piece of cardboard with the glass wet out and a wire thru the middle.He then folded the cardboard pushed it thru the hole and used the wire to pull it down to the inside of the hull.When cured you cut the wire, sand and begin the build up of glass from the outside.Pretty neat trick.

d.h. [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

[LITTLEBISHOP]

Don, I read your idea, it sounds good. I'm going to clean out the area, dry it, and sand carefully. I will also post some more photos as I go along. Hopefully I can get this done right, or as close as possible . THANKS to everyone who offers advice on my repair project!!

[Desperado]

MARC

Sounds like you've got some good advice so far, I'll just add a couple of things. As Hermco said, let dry really well. Don't be in too big a hurry, you only want to do this once.

After drying, I would use a liquid foam and blow it into the void. As it cures it will expand and fill all the air spaces. This is not structural but it will give you the backing that you need with the least amount of effort. Once cured, you can shape the foam back with a knife and begin laying your glass. Sand and wipe w/ acetone inside there before applying the foam so you'll get good adhesion.

You talked to West System so you know about the tapering. In this case I would start with my biggest piece of glass first and then do progressively smaller pieces building outward.

A couple tips:

- Use West System epoxy
- Add a small amount of Cabosil to the Epoxy mixture when you initially wet out the boat. Give it time to become tacky before applying the glass. The cabosil in the resin makes it hold the glass up there better for some reason. This is especially critical as you'll be working upside down. When it's nice and tacky, apply the glass and wet out.

-If you want to apply multiple layers at one time you can use a vacuum bag. This is a great way to do repairs to the bottom because it not only holds the glass to the bottom but leaves a much smoother finish, ie; less sanding!

Any repairs to the bottom are tough but not impossible. Be sure to cover up, head too. Epoxy is hard to get out of your hair.

Good luck.

[Trayder]

Tom-

I like the liquid foam idea!.

I have nothing valuble to add to this thread but patience and preperation will be a key factor in having a repair that will last.