pilot house ?

[fat2nawilly]

I've been busy building this one for a buddy of mine, It's not a classic but it is a seacraft. beautiful lines!

[21ftcc]

So how much weight did it add?

[pelican]

lookin' good willy...

you guys who used wood,why ? just curious,composites would allow you to save alot of weight,plus,composites last indefinatley...

[KenB]

lookin' good willy...

you guys who used wood,why ? just curious,composites would allow you to save alot of weight,plus,composites last indefinatley...

Dunno about you guys but I am using wood because the composites are expensive, no one actually knows what composites will look like after 30 years of UV in a boat (haven't been around that long), and the plywood I removed from my 1969 20, especially that stuff that was resin impregnated, is fine. I have a closed cell foam dog house someone gave me, but I am really not happy about compression, compared to ply... let me put it this way... I think I could get a c-clamp to crush the closed cell stuff, even with 2 layers of 1708 on both sides. not sure the same thing happens with 3/4" A/C.

I am using 1/2 lowes arauco instead of balsa for all my recoring efforts or hatches, top caps.

I think epoxy impregnated ply will last longer then the composite stuff. My 2 cents. If it ain't broke don't fix it. Put some epoxy or 5200 in all screw holes and thing should be golden.

Also, I am planning to use a glue gun to stick things together and then fillet and tape seams. Based on technique from ed anderson in San Diego. He uses poly on ply and has really good results. Swears by the glue gun technique.

LASTLY, the extra weight justifies a suzi 300?

[Fr. Frank]

...LASTLY, the extra weight justifies a suzi 300?

At least that!!

[pelican]

not saying anything is "wrong" with wood,as a core-but-wood needs to be kept dry-water,especially fresh water is the enemy-dry rotting/delamination...
working outside-how do you keep everything dry ?

i read someone recomend polyester based resin-not the best choice for working with glass and wood-polyester resins only provide a surface bond,also,the polyester resins are not waterproof.

i'm just surprised to see no one using divinycell-it's very easy to work with...i work with these products every day-i've replaced enough rotted transoms,decks,stringers,bulkheads-hard tops with a balsa core,to see the damage water intrusion can cause...

the pilot house i build,will be from composite material-bagged-i've worked with enough composites,at my shop,to be a firm believer in the technology...

[fat2nawilly]

thanks for the compliments guys. It probaly only added a couple hundred extra pounds. probaly real close to the same weight of the huge t-top that we took of of it. The 3 sides are 3/4'' and the top is 1/2'' with 3/4'' screwed to the under side of the over hang. so the middle is still 1/2'' and only the bottom outer edges got thicker.The back edges I used 1 1/2'' pvc pipe and cut a 5/8'' slot out of it and sliped it over the ply and screwed it in. The reason we didnt go with composites is the cost. as long if you have the whole thing glassed and sealed up I dont see it rotten anytime soon.think of how long some of the transoms and floors lasted.

[KenB]

not saying anything is "wrong" with wood,as a core-but-wood needs to be kept dry-water,especially fresh water is the enemy-dry rotting/delamination...
working outside-how do you keep everything dry ?

i read someone recomend polyester based resin-not the best choice for working with glass and wood-polyester resins only provide a surface bond,also,the polyester resins are not waterproof.

i'm just surprised to see no one using divinycell-it's very easy to work with...i work with these products every day-i've replaced enough rotted transoms,decks,stringers,bulkheads-hard tops with a balsa core,to see the damage water intrusion can cause...

the pilot house i build,will be from composite material-bagged-i've worked with enough composites,at my shop,to be a firm believer in the technology...

I have about 15 years of experience with wooden skiffs that suggests you are wrong about "need to keep ply dry"... you just need to keep it painted or oiled. I think balsa and ply are more different than ply versus any of the fancy expensive cores. Sadly, lowes does not carry divinycell, but as soon as they do I will pick some up and see how it goes! I pay about $30 for a sheet of arauco. I do have to pick through the pile to find good sheets with no voids, but how much does a 4x8 of your stuff go for?

I had heard the same thing about poly on wood, but Ed Anderson swears by it and has done some great boats with it. He says the key is to make sure you rough up the surface of the ply (36 grit) and then make sure a barrier coat (i.e. any decent epoxy or LPU paint) goes on over. My understanding is that the load baring is done by the glass... the ply or whatever you use for core just needs to not compress. Lots of great coldmolded boats out there... like that 40 freeman on hull truth. Yes I know epoxy not poly.

I guess my other thing about the fancy core materials... epoxy is only made by like 3 different chemical companies. All the different brands you see (and different prices) come from some tweaking after the fact, but for the most part, the price difference is the result of different business models not different products. I would rather pay $43/gallon and have to deal with the epoxy products website than pay $80/gallon for west systems to build special epoxy product stands in every west marine across the country. My point is... I wonder how much hype is behind this new stuff.

Outside - combination of tarps, sheds, and basement.

[pelican]

west marine ? what does west marine have to do with "west system epoxy" ? are you under the assumption,west marine,IS west systems epoxy ? if that's the case,you need to look a little further into that...
http://www.westsystem.com/ss/

plywood most definatley needs to be kept dry-allow a plywood core to get wet-end result is dry rotting and delamination-painting the wood-tell me,what does that do ? keeps water off the wood,right ? plywood,it usually rots and wicks water via the end grain,the reason the end grain needs to be sealed-and sealed properly,with an epoxy based product...fresh water,as in rain water,is the worst...

"roughing up" wood before glassing does nothing to increase the absorbtion rate of a polyester based resin,polyester resin used on a wood surface,it provides a surface bond-the reason the fiberglass skin can easily be removed from the wooden core-when recoring hatches,decks,transoms,etc-try the same thing with an expoy resin as the lamination mix-the results will be much different..."roughing up" a surface is needed,it gives the products something to "bite" to...ever try painting a slick smooth surface ? polyester based resins will cure much quicker,than epoxy based products-which usually require a full 8hrs cure time-time to "soak" into a pourous surface,such as wood.

"your stuff",i use it,i do not manufacture it...price ? well,one transom core-a high density foam composite-for a 29 sea swirl striper-michigan composites mfg'd the core,it cost $130,plus shipping-i ordered the core,cut to fit...$130 for a transom core,not bad...that was a new 290 with the alaska package ,twin 250 yamaha's,the boat ran down a dredge pipe,at a very high rate of speed-fast enough to have the stbd engine shear the tilt piston,allowing the engine to fly upwards,and crush the cowling...the transom core was broken through-the drain tubes in the transom were popped out-clearly one hell of a hit,the engines stayed on the boat...i had one job-transom core,and stringers,on a boat with a 9'4" beam,the lumber bill-2 sheets of 5'x10' 3/4" and a single sheet of 1/2" 5'x10,cost almost $600-all marine grade...standard sheets are 4'x8'...i don't think lowes sells marine grade ply...
i'm not saying there's anything wrong with wood,i've used alot of wood,no problems.i'm just surprised to see no one using composites...

[KenB]

west marine ? what does west marine have to do with "west system epoxy" ? are you under the assumption,west marine,IS west systems epoxy ? if that's the case,you need to look a little further into that...
http://www.westsystem.com/ss/

If you walk into any west marine store, you will generally see a large wire merchandising fixture dedicated to west systems epoxy. These things don't grow on trees, and the money it costs to put them into stores comes from somewhere. Generally, my pocket.

Compare that set up to this website: http://www.epoxyproducts.com/
- I dare you to find pricing info on there, let alone the products you actually want.
- That said, I would much prefer to navigate a home built website and get a super high quality epoxy product for $45, then waxed west systems stuff for $80.

Didn't mean to suggest that west marine has anything to do with west systems, beyond the fact that the west systems fixture is usually found in west marine stores. Never mind that west marine loves to mark up products because they are "marine grade."

plywood most definatley needs to be kept dry-allow a plywood core to get wet-end result is dry rotting and delamination-painting the wood-tell me,what does that do ? keeps water off the wood,right ? plywood,it usually rots and wicks water via the end grain,the reason the end grain needs to be sealed-and sealed properly,with an epoxy based product...fresh water,as in rain water,is the worst...

"roughing up" wood before glassing does nothing to increase the absorbtion rate of a polyester based resin,polyester resin used on a wood surface,it provides a surface bond-the reason the fiberglass skin can easily be removed from the wooden core-when recoring hatches,decks,transoms,etc-try the same thing with an expoy resin as the lamination mix-the results will be much different..."roughing up" a surface is needed,it gives the products something to "bite" to...ever try painting a slick smooth surface ? polyester based resins will cure much quicker,than epoxy based products-which usually require a full 8hrs cure time-time to "soak" into a pourous surface,such as wood.

I agree with you that balsa is bad. But I disagree with you about why. What I was told was that that integrity of fiberglass construction comes not from the inherent strength of the core, but from the compressibility of the core... when you jump on a lower unit and the transom flexes, that is caused by the two outer fiberglass skins compressing, not from the core material flexing. Same with floor and hatch covers. Wet delaminated plywood compresses more then new ply, but much much less than wet balsa. I have not seen an epoxy-impregnated piece of ply take on water. Ever.

With regard to the poly on wood, that's a different point, but same idea. Roughing up allows for a better mechanical bond. Molecular water does go through straight poly, but that's why you prime or bilge coat. And make sure any hole you drill get sealed up properly. Here are some epoxy on ply project that you claim will sink within a year because they didn't use the fancy core stuff:
http://www.fishyfish.com/boards/index.php?topic=259.0
http://www.fishyfish.com/boards/index.php?topic=956.45

(I'm joking... I know you don't think they will sink. For a while at least!)

And I think you are wrong about the cure times effecting wicking... epoxy is simply based on different solvents that wick better into wood. If you have ever used CPES or GitRot, those two products shift the solvents way down the spectrum to the point where they are as thin as gin or rum. In other words, even if poly and epoxy cured at the exact same rate, epoxy wets out much much better into wood. THAT's on the epoxy products site!

"your stuff",i use it,i do not manufacture it...price ? well,one transom core-a high density foam composite-for a 29 sea swirl striper-michigan composites mfg'd the core,it cost $130,plus shipping-i ordered the core,cut to fit...$130 for a transom core,not bad...that was a new 290 with the alaska package ,twin 250 yamaha's,the boat ran down a dredge pipe,at a very high rate of speed-fast enough to have the stbd engine shear the tilt piston,allowing the engine to fly upwards,and crush the cowling...the transom core was broken through-the drain tubes in the transom were popped out-clearly one hell of a hit,the engines stayed on the boat...i had one job-transom core,and stringers,on a boat with a 9'4" beam,the lumber bill-2 sheets of 5'x10' 3/4" and a single sheet of 1/2" 5'x10,cost almost $600-all marine grade...standard sheets are 4'x8'...i don't think lowes sells marine grade ply...
i'm not saying there's anything wrong with wood,i've used alot of wood,no problems.i'm just surprised to see no one using composites...

Lowes does not sell "marine" grade ply, but the arauco is void free (for the most part) and most A/C ply is good enough for decades of use in saltwater skiffs. Apparently on seacrafts it's important to vent the bilge to increase the longevity, someone should start a thread on that topic. Maybe do a poll or something.

Completely agree with you that the new stuff, in theory, seems way better. Sorry to suggest that you were pushing for it (even though I still think you are!).

I think part of the answer is that wood works, and it's not clear to me at least, that the composites are THAT much better. Better yes. A jones brother is better than parker. But how much better in dollars? In terms of the time it takes to either drive to some place, or risk buying something unknown that is expensive, and that a bunch of sales guys at various boat shows seem to keep hawking very aggressively.

I called it "your stuff" because the guy who posted earlier on this page used ply, and you suggested that he use something else. Ok fine, technically, you asked why he didn't use this other stuff. I wrote a reply as to why I am still using ply, and you sort of got defensive.

Which reminds me... the doghouses/pilot houses look awesome. Very burly, and just enough curves to give em some class. Nat's is nice, I think, because the curves keep it from looking like a giant box. Can't wait to see what shrimp has been up to.