Real world #'s on a 20' CC with a 140 4S Suzuki?

[Mark]

I personally know someone who was 3' from an E-Tec that blew up with flames everywhere. I'm not that brave anymore.

The only flames I've experienced was when Capt. Chuck....wait, that was another incident altogether, nevermind [img]/forum/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[DonV]

makes me wonder if he is on the payroll or something

Denny.....you been holding back on us????? You've been making the big bucks all this time from BRP and did not even tell us!!!! I'm thinking a round on you at the gathering in June!!! I'm kinda fond of single malt scotch.

[Skink]

Mark, if those #'s are 100% accurate, that seals the deal for me. I'll go with the Suzuki.

My neighbor the engineer has a twin vee with twin Zuke 140 4S that have been in tip top shape for years. I know he's done all the maintenance on his( Maybe not adjusting the valves) and is chomping at the bit to show me everything that needs to be done..

Thanks again guys, this is a great site.

[KenB]

PM me and I will email you the DF140 manuals I have collected thus far.

[Bushwacker]

I am going to have to call shenanigans on this... the suzi, yami, and honda maintenance costs are no where near what this guy is posting. He has been all over the site throwing up sort of silly numbers about ETEC versus japanese 4 strokes... makes me wonder if he is on the payroll or something.

KenB - “this guy” is a licensed Professional Engineer that has learned in 45 years of mechanical engineering practice that it is not wise to post ANYTHING that I have not thoroughly researched or had personal experience with. I am NOT on anyone’s payroll and I resent the implication that I’m an irresponsible salesman – I am simply a very satisfied owner. I can substantiate all of the “silly numbers” on fuel/oil consumption and speeds with fuel used and GPS records from my log book and Excel spreadsheets if anyone cares to PM me with an e-mail address. When I was trying to make a repower decision 5 years ago, I had the same questions that many other forum members currently have. The forum member was requesting real world numbers and that’s what I provided. I was trained to make decisions based on facts, not on hearsay and 2nd, 3rd or 4th hand info, and I respect his request for the facts. I felt that other forum members might be interested in what I learned from several years of intensive research on the subject. The forum members who know me well would tell you that, when I am about to spend big $ on something, I am notorious for literally “beating it to death” and being a royal PIA when it comes to research and asking questions of the factory engineers at the annual Miami Boat Show!

I believe the maintenance cost is a valid issue that merits discussion, because on the surface it simply looks like a scheme for increasing dealer profits. I really wonder how many folks literally follow the recommendations? I had TiVo’d the Shipshape TV Episode on engine maintenance so reviewed it again today to make sure I got it right. (It aired here on 3/21/11) Griviskes interviewed the service manager at the dealer here that I was considering buying a Zuke from. (I notice BRP is now one of his sponsors, so one could argue that he's not exactly unbiased!) Here’s what the service manager quoted on the Suzuki Service Manual Maintenance Requirements: 20 hr service (or 1 Mo.), $300; 50 hr service (or 3 Mo.), $300; 100 hr/1 yr service, $600-650; Total for 3 years: $2400, minimum. Was $2475 for Yamaha. Seems like a lot for what are basically oil changes and greasing a few fittings. I paid $661 for the 3 yr service on the E-TEC, which included water pump change, 2 new thermostats, a poppet valve, and gear oil change. The Albury Boats guy on the show said these services had to be done at dealer or it would void warranty, but I don’t know why you couldn’t do that yourself if you could prove you did it. Car warranties don’t required dealer oil changes. If any owners here know the true story on this issue, I'm sure many of the forum folks would like to know! At 500 hrs, a valve lash check is required for $800. If adjustments are needed that’s more $. I can see where you’d lose some performance it it opened up but I wouldn’t think bucket tappets with shims would change that much in 500 hrs. The old Jags had that setup and I don't recall them requiring checks that often.

Like most folks considering a repower, I initially figured that 4-strokes were the only way to go and I had been watching their development for several years. I initially considered the Zuke 115 and then the 140 and I was impressed by their attention to significant engineering details, such as the chain cam drive bathed in oil at the bottom of the motor and the offset driveshaft that lets them get more gear reduction to swing a bigger more efficient prop without the drag of a large diameter bullet in the gearcase. The Suzuki’s are still my favorite 4 stroke motor for those reasons. I've previously discussed why I picked the E-TEC.

I was admittedly skeptical about the new technology, but discussions with a colleague of mine that is now the chief engineer of the BRP test center in Stuart convinced me that all of the Ficht horror stories were irrelevant and that BRP had figured out the problems and fixed them. Subsequent experience has exceeded expectations. Also nice to see a “Made in USA” product be so competitive for a change! I think we're in agreement that all of the new motors are a big improvement from what was available only a few years ago. As far as fuel restrictions causing problems, ANY piston engine is susceptible to overheated/seized pistons if subjected to lean conditions from a clogged injector, and the extra oxygen molecule in ethanol certainly makes the lean fire hotter. Also the more overpowered you are, the less likely you are to notice a problem until it’s too late! I once had a plugged high speed jet in my old 115 that I might not have noticed if I’d had a V-6. At least the new oil injected DI motors still get oil under those conditions instead of being starved for gas AND oil as in the old days with a plugged jet! A thermocouple in the exhaust (an Exhaust Gas Temperature or EGT sensor) like used on some HD diesels, would detect on extra-lean situation. Will be interesting to see if an enterprising guy comes up with an aftermarket gage for that!

Sorry for the long post, but my conscience just couldn’t let this one go unchallenged!

DonV – I’m not a Scotch drinker, but I’ll have some fine ancient Bourbon imported from Kentucky at our next gathering that I'll be happy to share! Denny

[DonV]

DonV – I’m not a Scotch drinker, but I’ll have some fine ancient Bourbon imported from Kentucky at our next gathering that I'll be happy to share! Denny

Thanks Denny!!! My pleasure!

[KenB]

Ok Mr Researcher, 3 questions.

1) How many DF140s have blown up due to restricted fuel lines? Short answer... none.
2) Which part of Canada is BRP from that is "made in America"?
3) How hard is it to change your car/truck oil? Can you take it to the dealership and pay $45 to do it every time? Sure, but if you are on a website dedicated to the hundreds of hours it takes to refurbish 30 year old boats, odds are you are comfortable with a filter wrench and a rag. Plus, you probably know where the NAPA is...

If you had done your research impartially instead of getting swallowed up by the full court press that BRP marketing put on, you would have noticed one thing... etech is basically FICHT. With the same failure rate. With the same super sensitivity to fuel line restrictions, viscous oil, and resulting catastrophic failure.

So, a 4th question... if the etech has 300 (or whatever) fewer parts, they why does it cost more than similar sized 4s?

My answer (which is more of an opinion than a fact) is that they factor in 300 parts worth of returned engines. Etech is basically a marketing play... BRP pushes those low maintenance numbers out there, knowing full well that a certain number of those engines are coming back . They swallow that cost, and do everything they can to shut down the internet chatter about the blown blocks by handing out free engines to the squeaky wheels. If you are a weekend guy who putters around for fun, then losing a few weeks of down time and getting a brand new engine at no cost is a minor hassle. If you are a comm fishermen, or someone whose income depends on your limited time on the water, then no amount of new engines is going to recover that lost time.

I personally would rather do service on something every 100 hours, then trust a warranty.

And for the record, I think etechs are good solid engines! It took a little bit for them to work out plugs, oil, etc but they are very solid engines. I guess my deeper point is that while new technology is great, I don't want to be the guinea pig. I'll wait a few years and look at the track record of the product, and by that measure, DF140 seems to be a pretty good engine for the 20.

The etechs seem to be doing great too. Very glad to know you are happy with yours, and I will certainly check out the 150 when I am ready to repower my 20. By the way, there are 2 etch 150s, a high output one maybe? What is the difference and which one do you think is better for the 20? I am going to do a hermco bracket (so there will be floatation) and I am raising the decks.

I'm a talisker (peaty, spey side) guy, which I think makes me grumpy. I got mad at someone else who was talking smack about plywood.

[76Red18]

I'll stick with my ol 150 Jonnyrude carbed 60 series. More reliable than any of todays technology for sure Lets ease up a little and just give the original poster what he wanted. Performance numbers based on experience. Peace, out!

[DonV]

Excellent question and the same one I had about 5 years ago! I put together a spreadsheet comparing all the motors in that size class which I can send you if you PM me with an e-mail address.

Lets ease up a little and just give the original poster what he wanted. Performance numbers based on experience

You mean like this original offer from Denny on 4/7??? From where I sit, it was an opportunity to use detailed information compiled while doing research similar to what the original poster wanted to help in his purchase, you can take it or leave it. After all....It's the buyer's money, he can spend as he wants. Sorry about the plywood thing Mr. KenB, however on this forum we don't bash members who are trying to be of help.

[KenB]

You mean like this original offer from Denny on 4/7??? From where I sit, it was an opportunity to use detailed information compiled while doing research similar to what the original poster wanted to help in his purchase, you can take it or leave it. After all....It's the buyer's money, he can spend as he wants. Sorry about the plywood thing Mr. KenB, however on this forum we don't bash members who are trying to be of help.

I was don't see how it's helpful to repeat the marketing mantra from the boat shows... when people with the real world experience will tell you that oil change numbers used by the boat show marketers are bunk.

Took me repeated visits to merc, BRP, Yammy, and Suzi dealers to figure out why etechs were more expensive.

Original poster went with DF140 and will be happy he did so. I am happy to send him (or anyone else) the manuals I have, if that will help lower ownership costs.