How does the Sceptre shed big water over the bow ?

[Bushwacker]

Originally Posted by bgreene

Talking the real deal here - getting caught in rough seas and how this 23' handles - from guys who've been there.

Maybe you should be looking for a rare Moesly 21! It's pretty hard to get water over a deck that's about 5' off the water!

Here's an excerpt from a recent e-mail from a good friend of mine that bought one that was on display at the 1965 Miami boat show:

". . .When I still had the original 230 cu. in. straight six Chev Mercruiser @ 150 h.p. I crossed to West End once in 8’-10’ at 2600 PM. Took 5 hrs. but NOTHING rides like that 21 – NOTHING ! – Carl’s “secret” was the patented Variable Deadrise. There was a 23 Allmand with me. Every time I looked back to check on him, either his bow was submerged or he was airborne! Like I say – NOTHING ! – Once, returning to FL with Everett I took a 20 ft. “rogue” wave when the USCG stopped us “out in the middle.” Beth was hysterical for about 10 min. or so. Every time I see the film, “The Perfect Storm” I have a flashback to that incident. I just had time to tell Beth: “HANG ON !” But, we took it. -- I could see “daylight” through the rim of the wave. It was just about to “break.” USCG guys who finally boarded my boat to look for drugs, said: “Yeah, we saw it. – That was a BIG wave!”

NEVER – not EVER did I take a wave over the bow of that boat – and I went out in ALL kinds of weather when I first came down here.

Until Craig taught me: “Bob, it’ll still be here next weekend – we’re goin’ home.” I was afraid the Gulf Stream might leave! After that, my rule was: With my eyeballs 6 ft. above sea level, if I can’t see what’s right in front of me, I don’t belong out there ! – Another “rule” was, if a wave came over the side and over the gunwale into the cockpit– we’re outa’ here !

Once I lost a STUPID diver out there in 10 -- 12 ft. seas, and went to USCG to help find him. They paid Carl Moesly and the 21 the HIGHEST compliment EVER ! – The USCG Bos’n asked me if we wanted to go in my boat or their 28 ft. boat. I could tell he was scared, but I said I lacked the proper radio equip. to commo w/their chopper. We went out, but no sign of the idiot. CG chopper found him later, hanging onto the channel marker at the L.W. Inlet."

Bob may be a little biased after running that boat for 29 years and literally wearing out about 4 engines, but he has more experience with it than anyone else I know of, including about a hundred Bahama trips. He's definitely "been there, done that"! Denny

[bgreene]

Originally Posted by Bushwacker

Maybe you should be looking for a rare Moesly 21! It's pretty hard to get water over a deck that's about 5' off the water!

Here's an excerpt from a recent e-mail from a good friend of mine that bought one that was on display at the 1965 Miami boat show:

". . .When I still had the original 230 cu. in. straight six Chev Mercruiser @ 150 h.p. I crossed to West End once in 8’-10’ at 2600 PM. Took 5 hrs. but NOTHING rides like that 21 – NOTHING ! – Carl’s “secret” was the patented Variable Deadrise. There was a 23 Allmand with me. Every time I looked back to check on him, either his bow was submerged or he was airborne! Like I say – NOTHING ! – Once, returning to FL with Everett I took a 20 ft. “rogue” wave when the USCG stopped us “out in the middle.” Beth was hysterical for about 10 min. or so. Every time I see the film, “The Perfect Storm” I have a flashback to that incident. I just had time to tell Beth: “HANG ON !” But, we took it. -- I could see “daylight” through the rim of the wave. It was just about to “break.” USCG guys who finally boarded my boat to look for drugs, said: “Yeah, we saw it. – That was a BIG wave!”

NEVER – not EVER did I take a wave over the bow of that boat – and I went out in ALL kinds of weather when I first came down here.

Until Craig taught me: “Bob, it’ll still be here next weekend – we’re goin’ home.” I was afraid the Gulf Stream might leave! After that, my rule was: With my eyeballs 6 ft. above sea level, if I can’t see what’s right in front of me, I don’t belong out there ! – Another “rule” was, if a wave came over the side and over the gunwale into the cockpit– we’re outa’ here !

Once I lost a STUPID diver out there in 10 -- 12 ft. seas, and went to USCG to help find him. They paid Carl Moesly and the 21 the HIGHEST compliment EVER ! – The USCG Bos’n asked me if we wanted to go in my boat or their 28 ft. boat. I could tell he was scared, but I said I lacked the proper radio equip. to commo w/their chopper. We went out, but no sign of the idiot. CG chopper found him later, hanging onto the channel marker at the L.W. Inlet."

Bob may be a little biased after running that boat for 29 years and literally wearing out about 4 engines, but he has more experience with it than anyone else I know of, including about a hundred Bahama trips. He's definitely "been there, done that"! Denny

What's the boat all about ? Where produced ? How's the ride in short steep 3'4's ? Pound?

[ScottM]

Originally Posted by bgreene

What's the boat all about ? Where produced ?

Last built in the '60s and quite hard to find one today.

[Bushwacker]

Originally Posted by bgreene

What's the boat all about ? Where produced ? How's the ride in short steep 3'4's ? Pound?

The Moesly 21 is the grandaddy of all SeaCrafts, the very first production model, designed and built by Carl Moesly in Miami in the early 60's. Many stock 21's were raced in the very rough Offshore Power Boat races in the 60's with twin I-6 Mercs, totally dominating the outboard class and often beating many of the bigger inboards running 1000 HP! Check out Carla's Moesly SeaCraft site for more info, http://www.moeslyseacraft.com/21-seacraft.html. Be sure to also check out the Stock Boats section under the Racing tab.

Although deadrise at the transom is about the same as the 23, the steps are much deeper and deadrise in the forward sections of the hull are much deeper than the 23, very similar to the 25' Seafari. As a result it's probably one of the best riding of all the SeaCraft models, except maybe for the 25' Seafari, with it's 24.5 degree deadrise at the transom.

Bob made many crossings to the Abaco's across the shallow Little Bahama Bank which is notorious for short steep square waves. Many 23's made that trip with him, but he said every time the seas got over about 3', the guys with the 23's would start calling on the radio, asking him to slow down! (And he didn't run that fast, typically cruising about 20 kts.) I've ridden in both the 21 and the 23, and I'd pick the 21 over the 23 anytime! It's ride is amazingly soft and I'd never worry about it pounding. Notice that you ride up forward SITTING DOWN, which to me is the true test of a good riding boat! That design would never work if it pounded! Riding in the back of a boat, standing up behind a CC with your legs absorbing all the shock, is not nearly as good a test of it's riding qualities!

It's definitely a rare boat - Carla thinks less than 200 were built. Only CSC members McGillicuddy, Island Trader and 3rd Day have Moesly 21's. Brian (3rd Day) also restored one that he traded for his 27, probably has most rough water experience with the 21, and can probably give you a better first-hand testimony of it's riding quality than I can. He was so impressed with it's ride that he was talking about popping a mold off of the one he salvaged down in the Keys a couple years ago, but don't know what the status of that plan is these days. Denny

[bgreene]

Originally Posted by Bushwacker

The Moesly 21 is the grandaddy of all SeaCrafts, the very first production model, designed and built by Carl Moesly in Miami in the early 60's. Many stock 21's were raced in the very rough Offshore Power Boat races in the 60's with twin I-6 Mercs, totally dominating the outboard class and often beating many of the bigger inboards running 1000 HP! Check out Carla's Moesly SeaCraft site for more info, http://www.moeslyseacraft.com/21-seacraft.html. Be sure to also check out the Stock Boats section under the Racing tab.

Although deadrise at the transom is about the same as the 23, the steps are much deeper and deadrise in the forward sections of the hull are much deeper than the 23, very similar to the 25' Seafari. As a result it's probably one of the best riding of all the SeaCraft models, except maybe for the 25' Seafari, with it's 24.5 degree deadrise at the transom.

Bob made many crossings to the Abaco's across the shallow Little Bahama Bank which is notorious for short steep square waves. Many 23's made that trip with him, but he said every time the seas got over about 3', the guys with the 23's would start calling on the radio, asking him to slow down! (And he didn't run that fast, typically cruising about 20 kts.) I've ridden in both the 21 and the 23, and I'd pick the 21 over the 23 anytime! It's ride is amazingly soft and I'd never worry about it pounding. Notice that you ride up forward SITTING DOWN, which to me is the true test of a good riding boat! That design would never work if it pounded! Riding in the back of a boat, standing up behind a CC with your legs absorbing all the shock, is not nearly as good a test of it's riding qualities!

It's definitely a rare boat - Carla thinks less than 200 were built. Only CSC members McGillicuddy, Island Trader and 3rd Day have Moesly 21's. Brian (3rd Day) also restored one that he traded for his 27, probably has most rough water experience with the 21, and can probably give you a better first-hand testimony of it's riding quality than I can. He was so impressed with it's ride that he was talking about popping a mold off of the one he salvaged down in the Keys a couple years ago, but don't know what the status of that plan is these days. Denny

Thanks Bushwacker - a 21' that can really handle 3-4' chop should be what everyone wants. Got to wonder why that hull isn't in production. Let's get that mold and build it right - all composite materials, no wood, oversized fuel tank, fantastic floatation, exceptional drains and all through bolted hardware. Then we'll pound the crap out of it for days on end to find any weak points for re engineering. Finally, we'll sell it as the ONE boat for REAL fishermen. You in ?

[Bushwacker]

Originally Posted by bgreene

. . . Got to wonder why that hull isn't in production. Let's get that mold and build it right - all composite materials, no wood, oversized fuel tank, fantastic floatation, exceptional drains and all through bolted hardware. Then we'll pound the crap out of it for days on end to find any weak points for re engineering. Finally, we'll sell it as the ONE boat for REAL fishermen. You in ?

I'm amazed that Potter didn't just keep building the 21 after he bought the company from Moesly, but he was never into racing, so maybe he didn't appreciate what a great sea boat it is. It's also incredibly space efficient . . . try to find another 21' powerboat with 7' bunks in it!

If you built a new one, exactly like Moesly did (with spruce stringers and plywood decks!), you wouldn't have to beat the hell out of it . . .he already did that, running WOT in 8-10' seas for 500 miles! Nothing broke, even when specially built all-out race boats were falling apart all around him! No re-engineering required because he built it right the first time! I'd build it as a dive boat with a big swim platform, which is how Bob used his (shown below), for trips like Connor takes!

Your best bet might be to look for a Seafari 25 like Connor's. There seem to be a lot more of them around than the 21. Strick just sent one to the crusher because he couldn't find a buyer that appreciated what a great boat it is!

For me, the Seafari is perfect for the type of boating I've done lately, like the S. Fla. Circumnavigation trip I took a couple of years ago. http://s188.photobucket.com/albums/z...t=69122ef0.pbw If I ever decide to sell this boat I've had for 37 years, it will be to buy one like these folks did for this adventure: http://www.integritycruise.com/

[bgreene]

Originally Posted by Bushwacker

I'm amazed that Potter didn't just keep building the 21 after he bought the company from Moesly, but he was never into racing, so maybe he didn't appreciate what a great sea boat it is. It's also incredibly space efficient . . . try to find another 21' powerboat with 7' bunks in it!

If you built a new one, exactly like Moesly did (with spruce stringers and plywood decks!), you wouldn't have to beat the hell out of it . . .he already did that, running WOT in 8-10' seas for 500 miles! Nothing broke, even when specially built all-out race boats were falling apart all around him! No re-engineering required because he built it right the first time! I'd build it as a dive boat with a big swim platform, which is how Bob used his (shown below), for trips like Connor takes!

Your best bet might be to look for a Seafari 25 like Connor's. There seem to be a lot more of them around than the 21. Strick just sent one to the crusher because he couldn't find a buyer that appreciated what a great boat it is!

For me, the Seafari is perfect for the type of boating I've done lately, like the S. Fla. Circumnavigation trip I took a couple of years ago. http://s188.photobucket.com/albums/z...t=69122ef0.pbw If I ever decide to sell this boat I've had for 37 years, it will be to buy one like these folks did for this adventure: http://www.integritycruise.com/

I think I'm in love ! If this pic is of the Mosely 21 - to me it's a great looking boat - bow proud, roomy, old style set up for serious salt water fishing, trolling etc. Must be extremely hard to find one now.......

[Bushwacker]

Originally Posted by bgreene

I think I'm in love ! If this pic is of the Mosely 21 - to me it's a great looking boat - bow proud, roomy, old style set up for serious salt water fishing, trolling etc. Must be extremely hard to find one now.......

The Moesly 21 in that picture is the "Unohu" that my friend Bob bought at the Miami Boat Show. I've followed him for a couple thousand miles all over the Bahamas, often only a couple of boat lengths off his transom so that deep hull could knock down the seas for my smaller Seafari. Some folks thought it looked sort of ugly with that big high bow, but one ride in it would quickly change their minds!

The weight would be somewhat less than the Sceptre, but probably not more than a couple of hundred pounds. There was a LOT of glass in those boats! You're right, they were pretty scarce, even when new. It is undoubtedly the worlds BIGGEST 21 footer! The first pic below shows the Unohu rafted up at Grand Bahama next to a Formula 233 and my Seafari 20. I helped tow Skip & Carla's ex-race boat down to Key Largo, and it actually towed pretty easily with my 4200 lb V-8 Dakota, but we didn't take the turnpike since the trailer had no brakes. After looking at the last picture below, Carla said I need a bigger truck! The perspective exaggerates the size, but makes for an interesting picture. (That Seafari 20 cap inside the 21 gives you a better idea of it's size!)

[pelican]

Originally Posted by bgreene

What's the boat all about ? Where produced ? How's the ride in short steep 3'4's ? Pound?

that's what the gentleman asked - note the words "short" and "steep" ?



this was your reply after you edited it today:

"Since the discussion has gotten beyond Sceptres, I'll descibe a 25 Seafari. Ride is in the same class as the 21. A rare boat, but not nearly as hard to find as the 21. It goes straight into 3-4 in the Gulf Stream with me sitting down and no desire to slow down below my normal cruise of 22-23 knts. At 5 ft, I slow down to 18 knots but still sitting down. I've run with two 30? ft Contender type CCs. They were jumping out of the water every third wave, everybody standing up in the stern, while I'm still sitting down in the middle of the boat. Last trip to Bimini was on the last day of Debbie, wind(on the beam) got up to a solid 25 knts with much higher gusts, seas got up to about 8 ftand breaking hard, lots of heavy spray coming over the bow and not a drop came in the forward hatch. Always felt totally safe and in control. I've run it in fairly large following seas and it acts like it is on rails. By far the best sea boat anywhere near its size that I have ever experienced.

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Last edited by cdavisdb; Today at 02:34 AM"


mr greene,being from new jersey,and also being a client of mine,he's asking about short steep chop,like we have in our area...you made a claim,i "called" you on that claim -no one "needs to chill"...if someone asks a question,they deserve a good usefull accurate answer,not a fairy tale - if you ask a question,you want an accurate answer,right ?
no need to get all bent out of shape...
there's a big difference between YOUR definition of "short",and what would apply to owner's in our area...

and i'm still very doubtfull,your boat's able to run the speeds you claimed,in the conditions you described -i know my 23 wouldn't...


as i typed previous:

boat owners rarely give accurate speed and ride information - their observations are usually very "optomistic"...

[bgreene]

Who's a client of who ?

Interesting read about the 25' Seafarer..... a good rig to keep at a dock, but not likely trailer.

Very interesting discussion - serious fishermen using boats 25' and under know what I mean by the " holy grail " ........ a boat that won't pound easily in 2, 3, and even 4' chop, plus holds together and doesn't leak into cuddy etc.....

That Mosely sounds very interesting - seems to have been I/0 powered. Wonder how that hull would run with a modern 200 such as Opti, Etec, HPDI.....

I'd love to take one of those old Mosely's for a spin off NJ any given day when it's forecast for 2-4' chop and run around. Seafarer too.