Beretta 93R & Tokarev TT33 full-auto.

[Fr. Frank]

I was shooting my replica 1860 Colt .36 cap-n-ball pistol at the range yesterday, and a guy comes in carrying several handguns. After a while, he takes out what looks very like a Beretta model 92 9mm, and a Polish Radom-built Tokarev T48 (improved TT33) in 7.62x25. Both were deceptive.

The Tokarev TT33 was select-fire. In place of the regular safety lever above the handgrip on the left side is actually a select-fire switch, changing it from semi to full automatic. He also had 30 rd. extended magazines for it. With a regular magazine, if you hold the trigger, the gun makes a 1 second burping sound and all 8 rds are gone. I was unable to get it to fire less than 3 rds at a time by stroking the trigger in full-auto mode. The owner says it cycles at about 800 rds per minute, but frequently jams by failure to completely eject spent cartridges. He said that Radom made less than 3,000 of these full-auto versions, and the only other manufacturer to convert the TT33 to full auto was Hungary's FEG gunmaker, for Egyptian military and police use. They made less than 500 full-auto versions, called the Tokagypt Model TU-90A, and it was made in 9x19mm, not the standard 7.62x25 Tokarev/Mauser cartridge. He further claimed that conversion from semi to full auto on an existing TT33 or derivative can accomplished by modifying 2 internal parts, and can be done with hand files in about an hour. Which is interesting, but as the penalty for making a class 3 firearm is 15 years Fed time, but I think I'll pass.


My brother has a pair of Hungarian Tokarevs T58's, each with 3 different barrels: 7.6x25mm, 9mm Luger, and .38 SuperAuto. They were imported by Navy Arms in VA. Fairly accurate for military issue, but not for precision target shooting. Good self-defense weapons.

The top pistol in the pic is a Chinese made Tokarev T54-1, the bottom is a Polish Radom T-48, both are minor improvements of the original TT33.


But, WOW. The Beretta 93R has a removable fold-down front handgrip, and carries 15 rds. hidden in it's mag. It is capable of semi-auto, or 3 rd full-auto bursts. With the built-in compensator, muzzle climb is reduced enough to put 3 rds in a 12" circle at 25 ft. I learned, however, that you don't try to shoot full-auto without using the front handgrip. Your first shot will be on target, the second about 2 ft above that, and the third headed up at a 45 degree angle.
Here's a pic and a movie.


Beretta 93R movie

[seafari25]

Gee, I got my popcorn ready but cant seem to play the movie

[McGillicuddy]

That's pretty cool Fr. Frank. does that 3 shot burst qualify as legal in the States ?

Try this Brandon:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=7X5NQGUcCeg

[rockdoc]

interesting, but as the penalty for making a class 3 firearm is 15 years Fed time, but I think I'll pass.

The other big penalty for having a full auto pistol has to be when it comes time to buy ammo Tough enough now keeping my semi autos fed these days

Steve

[Fr. Frank]

That's pretty cool Fr. Frank. does that 3 shot burst qualify as legal in the States ?

Legal if you paid the tax and were approved to own it. No to own as a regular firearm.

A Fully automatic Weapon (Title II, Class 3) is defined as any weapon capable of firing more than one round for each time the triggering mechanism is pressed, pulled, or activated. 3 shot bursts are full-auto. To own a Title II (fully automatic) firearm, you must buy the weapon from a Class III S.O.T. permitted (Special Occupational Taxpayer) licensed gun dealer, PLUS pay a $200 transfer fee for each Type II firearm you purchase.

Oh yeah, you gotta fill out tons of paperwork, be approved by the chief law enforcement officer in your area (like the sheriff or police chief), and then wait 8-12 weeks to be approved by the BATF. Then you can go pick up your new full-auto weapon.

Average cost of a full auto weapon sold legally is just under $4000, BTW.

To convert an existing weapon to full auto requires a gun manufacturer's FFL, (existing FFL, $200 application, and then $30 year) and a stamp-tax of $200 must be paid for each weapon converted.

[Briguy]

I was under the impression a fully auto .22 was legal but don't quote me on that.

A pre-ban ak-47 full auto will set you back 7k.

[Fr. Frank]

I was under the impression a fully auto .22 was legal

Only if you paid the $200 tax and went through the application process.

However, there are a number of devices made for .22's (and other semi-auto rifles) which make a them seem like full-auto, such as the BMF trigger crank, Hellfire & SuperTac trigger attachments, etc; but each in fact activate the trigger separately for each round fired, even if very, very quickly. Prices range from $20 to $60

Check out some here: http://www.rapidfiretriggers.com/

[Fr. Frank]

Just for fun, IF you were to engage in protective firearms carry, what would be your self-defense carry firearm of choice?
My choice would probably be either:
the EAA Witness in .38 Super Auto, (4.25" barrel, 15+1 rd capacity), or
the Colt 70 series 1911 Combat Commander 4.5" barrel, 10+1 rd. capacity) in the same caliber, and which can fire +p and +P+ loadings.

Remember, these are NOT target pistols, but self-defense weapons.
My second choice would be the same weapons in .45 Auto.

According to a 1998 FBI study of actual shootings over 10 years, the .38 Super Auto cartridge has the highest one shot stop rating of any cartridge in a semi-auto handgun, and was #2 overall. (The only round with a higher one-shot stop rating is the .357 Magnum, which is only available in a revolver, and is a near virtual tie with the .38 Super.) #3 in one-shot stops was the .45 ACP, #4 the .40 S&W, and #5 the .357 Sig.

Each cartridge had to have a statistical usage of 100 incidents of thoracic shootings to be considered. (The only cartridge to have nothing but law enforcement usages in this study was the .357 Sig.)

BTW, amazingly enough, the .22 Long Rifle was #6 on the list, ahead of 9x19mm, .38 Special, .380, .32 ACP, and 10mm auto

The only cartridge to make the study (100+ uses involving thoracic penetration) and have absolutely NO one-shot stops was the .25 ACP. However, the study also commented that the average number of times a victim of a .25 ACP shooting was hit was 4 times.

JFTR, I make the assumption that the best home defense weapon is a shotgun in the hands of my wife as she protects her children. And she can really shoot!!

[McGillicuddy]

In terms of reliability and responding as expected, I'd feel most secure with my old familiar, a Browning Hi Power 9mm with a full clip and a spare of enhanced ballistics like Winchester Ranger T 127 gr. +P+. The hot load and the expansion of the bullet makes up for its size. Its accuracy and control ability are second to none. And if you shoot until the threat is over you will have done plenty of damage. I think selecting a defensive weapon is similar to choosing your fishing lures. It's about confidence. Shad rap or Grub on a jig - in the right hands they both produce. I love a single action .44 magnum Ruger Blackhawk, but in a modern gunfight it is way too unwieldy to be effective under duress. Shooting the HiPower is like signing your name. Only hang up is it must be cocked and locked to be ready to go one handed if forced to do so.

I'd be willing to bet the success the .22 results are due to the number of close range execution-style head shot assassinations

[nestorpr]

Not to shanghai the thread but this was my birthday gift from my wife this past March:



Ruger New Vaquero in .45 Colt with aftermarket Amboyna Burl grips. Shot it with several different loads but my favorite "shock and awe" load is Cor-Bon Hunting load of 300 grn Sierra FSP at +P pressures, 1300+ fps and 1100+ ft/lbs of energy at the muzzle! Contacted Ruger Arms to clear the load and they gave me the go-ahead (I had heard that the New Vaquero could not shoot +P ammo but the factory says yes).